The moniker is simply useful to tag onto the end of Islam because it degrades all of Islam.
So we have a situation in Italy and the UK were real Fascists won elections. I'm not talking about right-wingers who get labeled "fascist" by their detractors. I'm talking about politicians who are Fascists and make no qualms about that fact.
please let me know when italians do this (x 1000) in the name of italy
[...]
then i'll start worrying
please let me know when italians do this (x 1000) in the name of italy
[...]
then i'll start worrying
So you don't care about fascists so long as they're not terrorists?
Good point , a facist who minds his own business ought to have the right to freedom of thought , no matter how goofy the thoughts are.
Good point , a facist who minds his own business ought to have the right to freedom of thought , no matter how goofy the thoughts are.
For the most part, I agree. However, we're not talking about fascists who are minding their own business. We're talking about fascists who have run for and been elected to public office, and are therefore intent on minding other people's business as well. So I ask again: you don't care about fascists so long as they're not terrorists?
Being a fascist doesn't mean you're automatically antisemitic.
And that is my exact point.
It has nothing to do with Fascism, itself. Just as the infatuation with Israel has nothing to do with the Jewish people and the horrors of the Holocaust.
For the American right wing Israel is merely a means to an end as are the Jewish inhabitants. The same is true of Fascism. When you get down to the heart of it, Fascism is admired by the right. Or to be more fair, by a segment (though a large segment) of the right wing. BNP rhetoric and statements have crept into this very forum, used as ammunition against illegal immigration.
Both Judaism and Fascism are simply tools, a means to an end.
So it took the Democratic party more time to recover from their infamous treachery than it took the Fascists?
=========================================
What infamous treachery?
This is fascinating, and slightly frightening. I'm watching people who denounce so-called "Islamofascism" say that the rise of actual fascism in Italy and the U.K. is not only nothing to worry about but a perfectly understandable response to supposedly uncontrolled immigration.
you don't care about fascists so long as they're not terrorists?
And that is my exact point.
It has nothing to do with Fascism, itself. Just as the infatuation with Israel has nothing to do with the Jewish people and the horrors of the Holocaust.
For the American right wing Israel is merely a means to an end as are the Jewish inhabitants. The same is true of Fascism. When you get down to the heart of it, Fascism is admired by the right. Or to be more fair, by a segment (though a large segment) of the right wing. BNP rhetoric and statements have crept into this very forum, used as ammunition against illegal immigration.
Both Judaism and Fascism are simply tools, a means to an end.
Did you forget your own qualifier?
The election of the fascist candidate means that there is a public support for the party , how would you quash it?
As long as they are not violent we don't need to get violent either .
This is fascinating, and slightly frightening. I'm watching people who denounce so-called "Islamofascism" say that the rise of actual fascism in Italy and the U.K. is not only nothing to worry about but a perfectly understandable response to supposedly uncontrolled immigration.
Did you forget your own qualifier?
No, I did not. And it wasn't a qualifier. It was a question. A question indicating incredulity.
The election of the fascist candidate means that there is a public support for the party , how would you quash it?
As long as they are not violent we don't need to get violent either .
I don't recall demanding anyone become violent. But I am noticing not just a distinct lack of criticism of the fascism in Italy and the U.K. but an actual defense of it. I'm watching people defend fascism as a perfectly understandable response to supposedly uncontrolled immigration. That this troubles me does not mean I expect people to call for the bombing of Italy or the U.K. It means I find the defense of fascism to be troubling. I'm surprised that you do not.
Islam predates Fascism by twelve centuries or so.True. Unless you wish to argue that froms of fascism did exist which were not then known as facist.
The Koran is largely written in gibberish, which I am guessing is at least as unintelligible to most modern Muslims as the KJV of the Bible is to most Christians.Indeed Geber did likely write also in Arabic, though probably not the same classical form, but nevertheless perfectly readable translations are available to the curious infidel.
Mohammad was a violent pedophile, but then again he lived in times that were even more violent than he was, and at least as pedophilic.Have you the long sought after proof of this? If this is true then why did Aisha's father object to mo's advances toward his six year old daughter? It would seem that at least one person present was a more just man than mo'. And do you really want to suggest that mo' was more enlightened than Cyrus? This assumption that you pass along is borne of the islamic doctrine of announcing everything before islam as ignorance. This is why cultural treasures such as the Tomb of Cyrus and the Bamayan Buddhas are given so little respect.
I think you can trace the rise of Wahabbi fanaticism, which is at the core of the Islamic Fundie movement to two things: the failed attempt of the Soviets to take over Afghanistan in the 1970's and the sharp drop in oil prices in the 1980's. The Soviets, triggered by the Shiite revolution in Iran, decided that Afghanistan was a threat to them in their own "stans": Uzbekhistan, Tajikistan, Khirghistan and Azerbaijan. There are a lot of Azeris in Iran, and the Tajiks are poor cousins to the Persians.Or when jihadist quote Sayyid Qutb (1909-1966) and Sayyid Jamāl-al-dīn al-Afghānī (1838-1897) then you may get the wild idea that jihadism did predate the events listed.
I am not defending fascism
so don't be facile.
I am defending a peacefull persons right to be wrong.
I don't like Fascism any better than I like Islam , but in any person or group that is not motivated to violence , theft or harm ,I do not feel I have the right to enforce correction on their attitude.
Irregardless their thinking , their being peacefull counts.
I don't like Fascism any better than I like Islam , but in any person or group that is not motivated to violence , theft or harm ,I do not feel I have the right to enforce correction on their attitude.
Irregardless their thinking , their being peacefull counts.
Their being put into public office also counts.
I'm not arguing that people don't have a right to be wrong. Of course they do. I am, however, arguing that watching people, not you but some people, defend the wrong of fascism is troubling.
But the side that won was the side that defined the rebellion as treachery , and it is the winner that makes that call.
Elected people have an equal right to be wrong as the unelected , and a group has no less right to be wrong than an individual.
There are alternatives to majority rule , but they are no more likely to be intelligent.
Elected people have an equal right to be wrong as the unelected , and a group has no less right to be wrong than an individual.
There are alternatives to majority rule , but they are no more likely to be intelligent.
I'm not denouncing a peaceful person's right to be wrong, ahem, so don't be facile.
Indeed Geber did likely write also in Arabic, though probably not the same classical form, but nevertheless perfectly readable translations are available to the curious infidel.
============================================
I did not say the Koran was unreadable, I said it is written in gibberish, and much of it makes no sense. There is also the fact that it s arranged in a very curious way, starting with the shortest verses and proceeding to the longest. If one arranges any book like this, I think it will seem incoherent.
Pedophilia was common in Mo's time, but it surely was not acceptable to everyone. I think it is natural for a father to resent some ancient dude having the hots for a six-year old daughter, even if everyone accepts this as "normal" for ancient dudes.
I don't see anyone actually saying that Fascism is a great thing either
Why do you suppose the public on the scene is turning twards fascist candidates when there are presumably other partys running?
As more and more people in the West beat the drum of how all our problems are caused by Muslims and immigrants, I expect we'll see more fascists gaining positions of power.[/color]
Who is doing that?
Who is doing that?
As best I can tell, the fascists trying to gain power in Europe. I personally have watched people complain that the problems with our government run social programs are not the programs themselves, but the fact that illegal immigrants are here taking advantage of the system. And I've watched people defend a rise in fascism as a reasonable response to influxes of immigrants and Muslims. But please, go ahead and tell me I'm the one overreacting. I'm sure (in a sarcastic way naturally) we can all learn to get along with peaceful fascism.
reasonableor predictable?
is there a criticism of fascism more powerfull than actually shooting them down in flames? If Fascism has developed a peacefull variant then we need not get so drastic. If they need the World War type treatment again , they know who to ask for it.
reasonableor predictable?
Well, let's just say I'm not seeing too many folks argue that it's the wrong response.
is there a criticism of fascism more powerfull than actually shooting them down in flames? If Fascism has developed a peacefull variant then we need not get so drastic. If they need the World War type treatment again , they know who to ask for it.
As I said before, I don't recall demanding anyone become violent.
What are you asking for?
I hope I would be willing to emulate the courage of my father and join in to shoot the dangerous sort of Facisist , but short of such danger why should I be interested?
Fascist and racist are probably two of the most overused pejoratives in the English language today.
"more and more people in the West beat the drum of how all our problems are caused by Muslims and immigrants"Tha certainly makes it understandable, Was Theo Van Gough a fasist?
Who is doing that?
As best I can tell, the fascists trying to gain power in Europe. .
Fascist and racist are probably two of the most overused pejoratives in the English language today.
I'm sure they are. I generally try to refrain from using them for that reason. That doesn't mean there is not a rise of fascism in Europe.
Tha certainly makes it understandable, Was Theo Van Gough a fasist?
Have we reache a consensus then that there is a rise in Facism , and that it has been driven by a rise un ethnic troubbles , most specificly a public unease with the rise of Islam?
Have we reache a consensus then that there is a rise in Facism , and that it has been driven by a rise un ethnic troubbles , most specificly a public unease with the rise of Islam?
If I were being highly diplomatic (not that usually am) I might put it that way, but in fact I'm not sure that we have reached any sort of consensus at all.
It might be nice to arrive on a consensus on what "fascism" is. This thread began with a complaint about the BNP having won some seats in the recent British elections. While the BNP is certainly a nationalist and nativist party, I take a skeptical view that nationalism and nativism in themselves amount to fascism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party
| The British National Party (BNP) is a whites only far-right political party in the United Kingdom. It has around 100 councillors in local government in England and holds a seat on the London Assembly, but is not represented in the Parliament of the United Kingdom. In the 2005 UK general election, the BNP received 0.7% of the popular vote, finishing eighth overall and in the Welsh Assembly Election 2007 they came fifth in terms of votes for the regional lists, though failing to win any seats. According to its constitution, the BNP is "committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948." The BNP proposes "firm but voluntary incentives for immigrants and their descendants to return home." It advocates the repeal of all anti-discrimination legislation, and restricts party membership to "indigenous British ethnic groups deriving from the class of ?Indigenous Caucasian?". The BNP also accepts white immigrants that are assimilated into one of those ethnicities. The BNP asserts that there are biological racial differences that determine the behaviour and character of individuals of different races. The party claims that preference for one's own ethnicity is a part of human nature. Historically, under John Tyndall's leadership, the BNP was overtly anti-Semitic; however, under the leadership of Nick Griffin, the BNP has focused on Muslims. The party has said that they do not consider the Jewish, Hindu or Sikh religions to have a significantly detrimental or threatening effect, although the BNP doesn't accept practicing Sikhs, Jews and Hindus as culturally or ethnically British although they do have members with Jewish ancestry. The BNP has been known to work with extremist Hindu and Sikh groups opposing Islam and has actively tried to win Jewish votes by supporting Israel. |
Fascist and racist are probably two of the most overused pejoratives in the English language today.
This is fascinating, and slightly frightening. I'm watching people who denounce so-called "Islamofascism" say that the rise of actual fascism in Italy and the U.K. is not only nothing to worry about but a perfectly understandable response to supposedly uncontrolled immigration.
"The same is true of Fascism. When you get down to the heart of it, Fascism is admired by the right."
You do not know much about the Right.
It might be nice to arrive on a consensus on what "fascism" is. This thread began with a complaint about the BNP having won some seats in the recent British elections. While the BNP is certainly a nationalist and nativist party, I take a skeptical view that nationalism and nativism in themselves amount to fascism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party
So is this accurate:
The British National Party (BNP) is a whites only far-right political party in the United Kingdom. It has around 100 councillors in local government in England and holds a seat on the London Assembly, but is not represented in the Parliament of the United Kingdom. In the 2005 UK general election, the BNP received 0.7% of the popular vote, finishing eighth overall and in the Welsh Assembly Election 2007 they came fifth in terms of votes for the regional lists, though failing to win any seats.
According to its constitution, the BNP is "committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948." The BNP proposes "firm but voluntary incentives for immigrants and their descendants to return home." It advocates the repeal of all anti-discrimination legislation, and restricts party membership to "indigenous British ethnic groups deriving from the class of ?Indigenous Caucasian?". The BNP also accepts white immigrants that are assimilated into one of those ethnicities.
The BNP asserts that there are biological racial differences that determine the behaviour and character of individuals of different races. The party claims that preference for one's own ethnicity is a part of human nature. Historically, under John Tyndall's leadership, the BNP was overtly anti-Semitic; however, under the leadership of Nick Griffin, the BNP has focused on Muslims. The party has said that they do not consider the Jewish, Hindu or Sikh religions to have a significantly detrimental or threatening effect, although the BNP doesn't accept practicing Sikhs, Jews and Hindus as culturally or ethnically British although they do have members with Jewish ancestry. The BNP has been known to work with extremist Hindu and Sikh groups opposing Islam and has actively tried to win Jewish votes by supporting Israel.
The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed.
This is fascinating, and slightly frightening. I'm watching people who denounce so-called "Islamofascism" say that the rise of actual fascism in Italy and the U.K. is not only nothing to worry about but a perfectly understandable response to supposedly uncontrolled immigration.
BNP launches election manifesto
The British National Party has launched its general election manifesto with a call to abolish multi-culturalism.
Leader Nick Griffin also called for EU withdrawal, the restoration of capital punishment and an end to immigration.
He said British troops should be pulled out of Iraq and used to patrol Dover and the Channel Tunnel to keep out illegal immigrants and asylum seekers.
And he pledged to introduce "firm but voluntary incentives for immigrants and their descendants to return home".
Assault rifle
He said the main issue at this election was for the British to regain control of their own country.
Mr Griffin also wants the reintroduction of national service and said everyone who had undergone it should be required to keep a modern assault rifle at home.
"It's there to shoot burglars with if they want, it's there to shoot people who invade this country if they want, and if in the end a tyrannical government wants to usurp the rights and freedoms of the people it is there to use against the government as well," he said.
He added that this would disprove the "smear" that his party was totalitarian.
The BNP is fielding more than 100 candidates in this election - four times as many as it did in the last general election.
BNP 2005 Manifesto (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/BNP_uk_manifesto.pdf)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4476279.stm
"The same is true of Fascism. When you get down to the heart of it, Fascism is admired by the right."
You do not know much about the Right.
Sure it is. I see many aspects of fascism popularized by the right wing in the United States.
I wonder how you see this marage.
You do not know much about the right,
so I will give you a clue,
you will never learn much about the right from the Huffington post.
I wonder how you see this marage.
You do not know much about the right,
so I will give you a clue,
you will never learn much about the right from the Huffington post.
Interesting Plane. I've honestly never read that.
I'll ask you a question, how could I not know much about the right? There is no left here.
So which part of this do you find troubling - that anybody with any common sense wasn't surprised by a perfectly predictable outcome, or that you were?
What I am seeing is more along the lines of, "Well of course that is the outcome because the liberals were letting the immigrants ruin everything." The reactions seem highly sympathetic. None of them seem remotely close to criticisms of people turning to fascism. That is what I find troubling. I am no fan of socialism, but turning to fascism to counter it is like turning to a tyrant to counter a despot.[/color]
is like turning to a tyrant to counter a despot.
Ok, given that the native population isn't getting much sympathy from the mainstream political establishment, what would you recommend that they do? I don't think they're going find "Bend over, grab your ankles and take it!" an acceptable alternative....
So comparing the Islamo Fascist with the Italian elected fascist is comparing someone who may be contemplating evil with someone who has accomplished the evil .
So fascism is their only alternative? Hm.
We're back to thinking about groups rather than individuals again. The native population are all in 100% agreement are they?[/color]
There are some folks in here who do two things constantly:
1. They defend Israel no matter what that nation's government does.
2. They constantly use the terms Islamofascism or Islamo-nazi.
So we have a situation in Italy and the UK were real Fascists won elections. I'm not talking about right-wingers who get labeled "fascist" by their detractors. I'm talking about politicians who are Fascists and make no qualms about that fact.
In Rome the Jewish community protested the new mayor and PM Burlesconi's fascist references in his victory speech. The BNP picked up council seats in the UK, including a coveted seat on the GLA.
Real Fascists. No semantics. No invented terms to inspire hatred. True fascists who joined Fascist parties.
Yet, these same crusaders for Israel and courageous captains-of-the-guard, vigilantly pursuing Islamic militarism wherever it may hide - said nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero.
That leads me to ponder two points.
1. They really could give a damn less about the Jewish people. The important thing is the Israeli state and its usefulness. I'd go further and say that Ethiopian Jews, for example, are ultimately meaningless. They have no western values or European culture. The important thing is the Israeli state and how they can be used to kill Muslims.
2. Fascism isn't an enemy at all. The moniker is simply useful to tag onto the end of Islam because it degrades all of Islam. Fascists in Europe are perfectly acceptable, if not appreciated. After all, they are legitimate allies with the right-wing and no one loathes illegal immigration and absolutely loves uniculturalism more than true Fascists. Nationalism is their lynchpin, how bad can real European fascists be to the right wing?
Well, you've had your opportunity to offer an alternative. So far I'm not hearing anything.
Apparently enough of them are that you and JS are up in arms about fascists taking over Europe because the BNP won a handful of seats.
I wonder how you see this marage.
You do not know much about the right,
so I will give you a clue,
you will never learn much about the right from the Huffington post.
Interesting Plane. I've honestly never read that.
I'll ask you a question, how could I not know much about the right? There is no left here.