Author Topic: Before - and After - Iraq  (Read 25875 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #60 on: November 28, 2006, 09:21:58 AM »
<<This ["See for yourself what it references."] from the guy who said that he couldn't be bothered to follow links in articles.>>

If I recall correctly, that was where you posted a link to a page that consisted itself of dozens of other links, the first few of which seemed to have nothing to do with the subject under discussion.  Nice attempt to "simplify" (some would say, "distort") a not-so-complex situation."

Amianthus

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #61 on: November 28, 2006, 10:17:36 AM »
If I recall correctly, that was where you posted a link to a page that consisted itself of dozens of other links, the first few of which seemed to have nothing to do with the subject under discussion.  Nice attempt to "simplify" (some would say, "distort") a not-so-complex situation."

You recall incorrectly.

It was an article that then had references linked at the end of the article. You "refuted" my presented evidence by saying you couldn't be bothered to visit the links.
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Michael Tee

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #62 on: November 28, 2006, 10:50:10 AM »
<<You recall incorrectly.

<<It was an article that then had references linked at the end of the article. You "refuted" my presented evidence by saying you couldn't be bothered to visit the links.>>

Gotta be a little more to the story than that.  Either the links were to bullshit sources or the point was irrelevant or the original article you posted was impossibly verbose and yet managed to say nothing and I had reason to fear more of same . . .

Amianthus

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #63 on: November 28, 2006, 10:59:44 AM »
Gotta be a little more to the story than that.  Either the links were to bullshit sources or the point was irrelevant or the original article you posted was impossibly verbose and yet managed to say nothing and I had reason to fear more of same . . .

It was an article from the Washington Post.

I reposted the link along with a snippet of the article. You finally waved your hands and made the claim that it only covered fund raising for a 6 month period and obviously it was not valid for the entire election cycle.

When I made the point that I had only presented one article in a whole series of them, you dropped the subject.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #64 on: November 28, 2006, 11:46:10 AM »
The book is Hannah Arendt's "Eichmann in Jerusalem:  A Report on the Banality of Evil."  It's a very well researched work on an "ordinary man," a "good citizen," somebody who never "acted evil," just did his job.  Never killed anyone personally, worked at a desk.  But millions died because of him.  The banality of evil was the sub-title of the book, and its real theme.

Ahh, so its back to a lack of proof is proof positive tactic.  Kinda what i thought.  In this case how egregiously evil Bush must be, because he comes off & acts as so not evil.  Thanks for the recommendation and heads-up Tee.  I'll keep it under consideration.  As I said however, when you can get back to me with actual family, friends, or perhaps your fantastic ability to read minds, then we can talk about how "evil" Bush really is supposed to be, because otherwise we have to go by his actions, and currently they're nothing even remotely approaching that of Hitleresque "evil".  Hell, not even close to Dodgers trading away Pedro Martinez evil 

Of course, I do realize to a hard core socialist leftist, your definition of "evil" is quite vast.....pretty much anything to do with capitalism & our military, for 1.  Likely any conservative, especially if it's a Black Conservative for another.  The frequent jives of Bush being a stupid version of Hitler pretty much paint that picture of what you find "evil" as well.  The point being, just like the egregious overuse of calling anyone that disagrees with the "black man" as being a racist & an uncle tom, thus perpetually minimzing what real racism is, the continued attempts to paint Bush as this egregious evil, in human manifestation form, continues to undermine and minimize truely evil folks and acts.  But as long as it makes you feel good, I guess        :-\
« Last Edit: November 28, 2006, 04:40:41 PM by sirs »
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_JS

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #65 on: November 28, 2006, 12:20:52 PM »
Quote
First, the United States had been far too friendly with atrocious regimes in the Middle East. And when bloodletting inevitably broke out, either internally or between aggressive regimes, too often we cynically played one side off the other. Or we backed repugnant insurgents, with little thought of the "blowback" that would result. We outsourced sophisticated arms and training to radical Islamists fighting against the Soviet-backed Afghan government. We hoped the murderous Saddam might check the murderous Iranian theocracy - and then again sold arms to the mullahs during the Iran-Contra affair.

All of this is very true, but it is also interesting that the focus is solely on the Middle East and that we assume George W. Bush (and the American people) has some moral high ground to impress democracy on an arbitrarily chosen nation. As an example, take the failed coup against Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. Like him or loathe him, Chavez was properly elected by the people of Venezuela yet this administration certainly did not respect that democratic authority.

If you dislike that example, then what foreign policy has this administration enacted that has shown any glimpses of changing those past policies of supporting inhumane regimes? We support the regime in Eqypt. Bush continues to petition the EU to include Turkey. We support Uzbekistan, which is certainly not an enlightened democracy. We support Israel. There is a picture of Bush holding hands with Saudi royalty. We support China. I can certainly continue if you like. I have certainly not seen the Bush administration offer any change to that foreign policy standard which mirrors Clinton's efforts. So I ask again, where do we come off as some shining beacon in all of this?

No, point one is weak - very weak.

Quote
We breezily called for an uprising of Shiites and Kurds only to abandon them to be slaughtered by Saddam after the first Gulf War. We cynically gave the Mubarak dynasty of Egypt billions in protection money to behave. While we thought we were achieving short-term expediency, American policy only increased long-term instability by not pressuring these tyrants to reform failed governments.

True, but we worry (and rightly so) about the alternative. Kuwait's elected assembly is filled with virulent anti-American sentiment. Luckily for us they have little power. Imagine a Congress of Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells. We don't love Mubarak, but the alternative scares us.

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Second, at key moments in the 1980s and '90s, the United States signaled that it would appease its terrorist enemies rather than engage in the difficult work of uprooting them. We did little other than file an indictment or shoot a missile at the killers who murdered American citizens, diplomats and soldiers in East Africa, Lebanon, New York City, Saudi Arabia and Yemen. Leaving Lebanon, scurrying out of Somalia, and continually flying through Saddam's skies for 12 long years without removing him only cemented the image of an uncertain America.

Nice try, but Saddam and the religious militants of Islam are not one and the same. It was well known throughout Islam that Saddam was not a practicing Muslim. In fact, Baathists in general are secular (and included Arab Christians) and disliked greatly by the Islamic militants.

The truth is, we really don't know what all was done with the terrorists during the 1980's and 1990's. I imagine that a great deal of it is classified. As a democracy we couldn't be as brash as the Soviets when it came to dealing with the likes of these groups. Killing innocent family members and removing body parts doesn't really work for a western nation that supposedly values human life and an open media.

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Third, September 11 changed the way the U.S. looked at the status quo in the Middle East. That attack was the work of terrorists who were enabled by our autocratic clients in the Middle East, and emboldened by our previous inaction. In response, Iraq was an effort to end both the cynical realism and the convenient appeasement of the past - and so to address the much larger problems of the Middle East that, if left alone, could lead to another large-scale terrorist attack in the United States.

The last part of the last sentence is important. In essence the point of this paragraph is that "we had to do something." Too many ridiculous acts throughout history have been carried out because too many people subscribe to the theory that "we had to do something." Fascist philosophy often ran along the lines that inaction or deep thought and reflection before taking an action were the sings of inadequate manhood. Action, for fascists, must be immediate - thinking can come afterwards to justify the action taken. People, after all, respect quick action and decisive leadership. Of course, maturity should lead us to the conclusion that action is only as useful as the careful planning beforehand.

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Whatever one thinks of our mistakes after Saddam was toppled, those three facts remain central to American foreign policy. Saudi subsidies to jihadists, Pakistani sanctuary for them, and Egyptian propaganda are all symptoms of these dictatorships hedging their bets - hoping their bought terrorists don't turn on them for their own failures and illegitimacy.

The three "facts" are rather weak points really. Pakistan remains a strong sanctuary for the Taleban because Waziristan isn't going to be "conquered" anytime soon unless we want to fight another protracted guerilla war. As for the "hedging their bets" I really don't see that this author understands terrorism in the Middle East at all.

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Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri will still connive to bring the new caliphate to Afghanistan, Iraq and beyond. And they won't be stopped by either cruise missiles or court subpoenas, but only by a resolute United States and Middle Eastern societies that elect their own leaders and live with the results.

Even if the results are Iranian-type theocracies?

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We can demonize President Bush and former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld all we want, or wish they presented their views in a kindlier and more artful fashion. We can wish that the United States were better at training Iraqis and killing terrorists to secure Iraq. But the same general mess in the Middle East will still confront Bush's and Rumsfeld's successors.

Who is demonizing? They quite clearly failed to see the aftermath of the initial removal of Saddam Hussein. The President even admitted so.

Quote
And long after the present furor over Iraq dies down, the idea of trying to help democratic reformers fight terrorists, and to distance America from failed regimes that are antithetical to our values, simply will not go away.

That tough idealism will stay - because in the end it is the only right and smart thing to do.

Idealism rarely trumps pragmatism in the real world.
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BT

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2006, 01:05:15 PM »
JS

Thank God the dems now control both houses of congress and perhaps the whitehouse in 2008.

They will solve all our problems. Won't they?


_JS

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2006, 01:14:07 PM »
Quote
Thank God the dems now control both houses of congress and perhaps the whitehouse in 2008.

They will solve all our problems. Won't they?

Not at all, where did I imply such?

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

domer70

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2006, 05:43:13 PM »
The question, of course, is not who can do the job perfectly but who can do it better? Indeed, that's why they have elections.

BT

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #69 on: November 28, 2006, 06:05:50 PM »
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The question, of course, is not who can do the job perfectly but who can do it better? Indeed, that's why they have elections.

By what criteria is it judged as to who can do it better. And elections are speculative, they are predicated on projections of future performance.

Middle East problems have been around since i was born. Through many administrations and congresses.

Let us not act like they just suddenly appeared last year. And let us not assume that they can be solved overnight. History doesn't show that track record.


Plane

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2006, 06:25:01 PM »
 "...take the failed coup against Hugo Chavez in Venezuela..."


How exactly was the US involved in that?

Michael Tee

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #71 on: November 28, 2006, 08:24:15 PM »
<<Ahh, so its back to a lack of proof is proof positive tactic.  Kinda what i thought.  In this case how egregiously evil Bush must be, because he comes off & acts as so not evil.>>

sirs, your obsession with this "lack of evidence is proof positive" theme is pathological.  In the case of Hannah Arendt's book, "Eichmann in Jerusalem; A Report on the Banality of Evil," the subject of the book, Adolf Eichmann, was a senior bureaucrat charged with implementing the Holocaust, who criss-crossed Europe making arrangements for round-ups, holding camps, transportation to the death camps by road and rail, etc.  He left a paper trail a thousand miles long, thirty yards wide and three feet deep.  There was no question about lack of evidence.  They had more evidence than they needed.  Everything meticulously recorded.  The book had absolutely nothing to do with an absence of evidence.

The book is a classic.  It's quoted by everyone on the political spectrum from right to left.  The point was that people who perform monstrous deeds don't necessarily live monstrous lives or look like monsters.  They can easily be normal, everyday, unremarkable people.  The point was made numerous times with serial killers, for example, in the U.S.A. - - Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacey, the BTK Killer, etc.  It's probably impossible to find one of these cases where some commentator somewhere hasn't quoted Hannah Arendt's phrase "the banality of evil" in relation to any of these criminals.

I really thought you'd (a) find it interesting and (b) learn something, and the only reason I suggested it at all was because of your incredibly stupid comment that Bush couldn't be evil because he didn't appear to be evil.  But on second thought, maybe you shouldn't read the book after all - - you'd probably get a brain haemorrhage when you encountered your first three-syllable word.  Better stick to reading the cartoons you seem to be so familiar with.

Lanya

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #72 on: November 28, 2006, 08:48:36 PM »
"...take the failed coup against Hugo Chavez in Venezuela..."


How exactly was the US involved in that?
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,688071,00.html

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yellow_crane

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2006, 09:15:45 PM »
Excellent. 


This is about a year old . . . it shows the complicity of the media in the propaganda war waged against Hugo Chavez, and is entitled "The Op-Ed Assassination of Hugo Chavez."

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2796

sirs

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Re: Before - and After - Iraq
« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2006, 09:50:43 PM »
<<Ahh, so its back to a lack of proof is proof positive tactic.  Kinda what i thought.  In this case how egregiously evil Bush must be, because he comes off & acts as so not evil.>>

sirs, your obsession with this "lack of evidence is proof positive" theme is pathological. 

No more than your pathological actual use of it
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle