Author Topic: Obama throws Israel under the Bus  (Read 127985 times)

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BT

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #195 on: May 24, 2011, 04:36:39 PM »
Israel is free to negotiate with whom and how it sees fit.

The question is do we need to continue to subsidize them while they are looking for the perfect partner?

If so why?


Actually that's a completely different question than the one I posed, and still has yet to be addresed, outside of whatever Israel wants to do, they can.  But oh well. 

No, we don't need to subsidize anyone in the region.   

Good. Then what do we care what the terms and conditions of their peace agreements are?

sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #196 on: May 24, 2011, 04:44:31 PM »
What should Israel off for them to remove the statement from their charter?

 ::)

If you're going to have a peaceful go-existance with your state neighbor, it kinda helps the negotiating process, knowing that that neighbor's intent is no longer to see your death.

Not sure how good an analogy this is, but what the hell......Neighborhood with a nice home, and lots of vacant land around.  Beyond the vacant lot, and scattered within, are folks that think your home is their home.  They even make it public and on record to kill you.  Their friends tried to kill you but failed, and you took charge of those vacant lots.  You offer this corner of the lot, you offer them that corner, you throw them a few bones, but you don't let them into your house.  They insist they must live right next to you, and oh, by the way, our arrangement is to kill you, whenever we get the chance.

You think the Home owner now is the one who needs to appease and placate??  I think not. 

But since we're so hip on the land for the "promise of peace", I'll flip it.....for Hamas to remove from its charter, the death of Israel & every Jew, Israel will "promise to go back to 67borders"


The Gazans have nothing to offer

They absolutely do...IN FACT THAT'S THE STARTING POINT.  It's THEIR Government with the charter.  Until that predisposition changes, Israel needs to do........NOTHING.  Arab neighors  IF THEY WANT PEACE, would be encouraged to provide some political pushing on those very elements within the Palestinian Government. 

And I'm sure you'd agree that at the very least, the Palestinian leader stand before his people and say he is willing to accept an Israeli state, just as Netanyahu is saying he can accept a Palestinian one.  right?

Ball's in the Palenstinian's court.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #197 on: May 24, 2011, 04:48:14 PM »
Israel is free to negotiate with whom and how it sees fit.

The question is do we need to continue to subsidize them while they are looking for the perfect partner?

If so why?


Actually that's a completely different question than the one I posed, and still has yet to be addresed, outside of whatever Israel wants to do, they can.  But oh well. 

No, we don't need to subsidize anyone in the region. 
 

Good. Then what do we care what the terms and conditions of their peace agreements are?

Placating the far lesser issue.........because, unlike some apparently, I care about the death & destruction occuring in the ME, and the peace that can be achieved with Israel & its Arab neighbors, if we deal with the 300lb gorilla in the room.  But no one said you had to care, so that's cool
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 04:58:10 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #198 on: May 24, 2011, 05:04:11 PM »
Quote
Placating the far lesser issue.........because, unlike some apparently, I care about the death & destruction occuring in the ME, and the peace that can be achieved with Israel & its Arab neighbors, if we deal with the 300lb gorilla in the room.  But no one said you had to care, so that's cool

Shouldn't it be they deal .

What are your thoughts about making Israel the 51st state. That would solve a lot of problems wouldn't it?

sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #199 on: May 24, 2011, 05:11:02 PM »
Quote
Placating the far lesser issue.........because, unlike some apparently, I care about the death & destruction occuring in the ME, and the peace that can be achieved with Israel & its Arab neighbors, if we deal with the 300lb gorilla in the room.  But no one said you had to care, so that's cool

Shouldn't it be they deal .

No, that's your position.  I've already told you my plan, and it does require a 3rd party repercussion intervention, as needed


What are your thoughts about making Israel the 51st state. That would solve a lot of problems wouldn't it?

Sure it would, but they're already home, right where they are.  Definately is an upgrade from your nuclear peace plan, but why would I make them move?  Why would I want to make anyone move away from their home??  Why should they want to move from their home??  You're really good with the non-starter positions, I'll grant you that
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #200 on: May 24, 2011, 05:22:03 PM »
Quote
I've already told you my plan, and it does require a 3rd party repercussion intervention, as needed

Who pays for the third party intervention? Thought you agreed Israel did not need or deserve US subsidies.

Quote
Sure it would, but they're already home, right where they are.  Definately is an upgrade from your nuclear peace plan, but why would I make them move?  Why would I want to make anyone move away from their home??  Why should they want to move from their home??  You're really good with the non-starter positions, I'll grant you that

Who says they have to move. Did the Hawaiians or Alaskans have to move? Sheeesh.



sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #201 on: May 24, 2011, 05:31:10 PM »
Quote
I've already told you my plan, and it does require a 3rd party repercussion intervention, as needed

Who pays for the third party intervention? Thought you agreed Israel did not need or deserve US subsidies.

Who said we were paying Israel anything?  Besides, it was simply an answer to your question, that had prescious little to do with my plan or the 300lb gorilla, that has yet to be addressed


Quote
Sure it would, but they're already home, right where they are.  Definately is an upgrade from your nuclear peace plan, but why would I make them move?  Why would I want to make anyone move away from their home??  Why should they want to move from their home??  You're really good with the non-starter positions, I'll grant you that

Who says they have to move. Did the Hawaiians or Alaskans have to move? Sheeesh.

Ok, I see where you're going with that.......hmmmmmm........hell of a long commute, but I see potential.  It'd require a massive new diplomatic approach to convince Israel to no longer be its own sovereign nation.  But it definately has an upside to it, which would also allow a return to the pre-67 borders, since any attack on Israel at that time, is an attack on the U.S.

You might be on to something.  Cu4, what are your thoughts?  Miss Henny?  Plane?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 06:20:52 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #202 on: May 24, 2011, 06:33:56 PM »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #203 on: May 24, 2011, 06:38:31 PM »
SIRS.....realize we are talking fantasy land again
but I am not sure about statehood for Israel
I'd have to see what the ramifications were
i'm sure some up side and bad side
people smarter than me would have to
explain to me the plus/minus ratio
it's a fun "what if" but i doubt has
any practicality.....but i'd like one
aspect of it...it would drive the
IslamoNazis absolutely bonkers!
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Plane

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #204 on: May 24, 2011, 06:43:10 PM »
Our constitution prohibits any religious test for public office.

We think this wise.

I don't think a majority of Isrelis nor Palestinians would go for it.

That would knock statehood pretty badly.

The potential for peace is reduced by so many people being involved who want something elese than peace more than they want peace.

The US is too entangled to ever be completely uninvolved , some of the biggest Jewish citys of the world are in the US , and some of our Muslim communitys are growing into that class.

If we impose a solution we may have to fight the solution into place, fighting both sides of course.

If we pay for a solution we will have to pay a lot , we are already paying bills for Isreal, Jordan, Egypt and some Palestinians, it amounts to a lot but what amount more would buy real peace?

Perhaps cutting back on everyones allowance would improve co-operation ?  We would need to co-ordinate with the Saudi's elese they would simply pick up the slack.

sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #205 on: May 24, 2011, 06:54:18 PM »
I definately appreciate yours and Cu4's notions on Bt's better looking peace plan.  I actually don't think its that far fetched, to be honest, so for me at least, it has some level of reality.  I'm curious though, what did any of you think of my gorilla in the room peace plan
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #206 on: May 24, 2011, 07:00:55 PM »


Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke to a joint session of Congress today. His remarks were greatly anticipated, coming off a tense meeting with President Barack Obama and a series of rhetorical skirmishes between the two men over the Israel-Palestine peace process. Obama last week advocated a two-state peace solution and a return to Israel's 1967 borders.
Majority Leader Eric Cantor escorted Netanyahu into the House Chamber to a room full of applause and loud cheers as Netanyahu shook hands, embraced and waved to those present.

"I am deeply moved by this warm welcome," Netanyahu said. "I am deeply honored that you have given me the opportunity to address Congress for the second time."

Netanyahu addressed a joint meeting Congress 15 years ago, saying he saw a lot of old friends and a lot of new friends from both political parties.

"Israel has no better friend than America and America has no better friend than Israel," he said, adding that Israel is the one emblem of stability in the Middle East.

The Prime Minister started his remarks by addressing what he referred to as an "epic battle underway in the Middle East," saying the region stands at a crossroads and has potential for freedom, liberty and true democracy rather than tyranny and oppression. Netanyahu hopes the countries surrounding Israel will take a path to liberty, as he believes true democracy is the only way to bring long term peace to the region, but said democracy is not paved by elections alone. His remarks noted that there must be a respect and dedication for the rule of law rather than men and that free speech must be upheld by governments rather than suppressed. Netanyahu upheld Israel as an example of that true democracy.

"Israel isn't what is wrong about the Middle East. Israel is what is right about the Middle East," he said.

Netanyahu said that governments like Iran's that continue to deny the holocaust and have called for the total destruction of the Jewish State should be exiled from participation in the United Nations and other international organizations. He said Iran specifically must continue to know that all options, including harsh sanctions and military intervention, are on the table in order to prevent the rogue nation from developing nuclear weapons, which he says would ignite a nuclear arms race in the Middle East and pose a fatal threat to Israel and the United States.

"We must take calls for destruction of our nation seriously," he said. "When we say never again, we mean never again."

Netanyahu acknowledged that the only way to gain stability moving forward is to develop lasting peace with the Palestinians. He called for two separate states, one Jewish and one Palestinian, pointing out his understanding that Israel will have to give up some Jewish ancestral land for peace. However, Netanyahu stressed that peace cannot ever be achieved unless Palestinian President Abbas denounces Hamas and recognizes Israel's right to exist. He said peace has not been achieved because the Palestinians have not accepted the idea of a Palestinian State next to a Jewish State. Netanyahu said Israel has always accepted Palestinians' right to exist.

"Israel is not a foreign occupier," he said. "They [Palestinians] continue to educate their children to hate. They continue to name public squares after terrorists."

Netanyahu made it clear he is willing to negotiate with the Palestinians for peace, but will not do so as long as the government in Palestine is backed by a terrorist organization, saying the leader of Hamas condemned the killing of Osama bin Laden while upholding bin Laden as a holy leader.

"Its time for President Abbas to stand before his people and say, 'I will accept a Jewish state,'" he said. "Israel will not negotiate with a Palestinian government backed by the Palestinian version of Al Qaeda."

Netanyahu said Israel will be the first State to welcome a Hamas-free Palestine into the United Nations if Abbas chooses to distance himself from the terrorist group and negotiate a real peace agreement.

Netanyahu swiftly rejected Obama's mideast peace "solution" last week and re-iterated his stance that Israel cannot and will not go back to 1967 borders today, but did concede that Israel is willing to make painful compromises for peace.

"Jerusalem must never again be divided," he said, adding that Jerusalem is the only place in the region where Christians, Jews and Muslims can worship peacefully. "Peace must be anchored in security."

He also said a long term military presence along the Jordan River will be necessary to protect the peace and sovereignty of Israel and to prevent the smuggling of weapons into Palestine, as the United Nations has failed to do, resulting in the launch of over 12,000 rockets into Israel, adding that a peace settlement through the United Nations will not work.

"Peace must not be imposed, it must be negotiated," he said. "Hamas is not a partner for peace."

Throughout his remarks, Natanyahu repeatedly thanked America for her support and partnership, even in tough economic times.

"No one can guarantee our peace partners that are here today, will be here tomorrow," he said.

Netanyahu was interrupted with standing applause 27 times and congratulated President Obama for killing Osama bin Laden.

"Thank you for ensuring that the flame of freedom burns throughout the world. May god forever bless the United States of America."
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 07:10:39 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #207 on: May 24, 2011, 07:03:37 PM »
Quote
Repercussions can include military attacks upon any and/or all CnC centers, any and/or all communication centers, and any/or all vehicles with wheels.  Repercussions to be swift and total

If Israel were to act "mischevious" by trying to place settlements in those new Palestinian territories, they will be met by military vehicles, and bulldozers if necessary


I think this would happen a lot.

But would Jordanians or Egyptians have enthusiasm for strict enforcement of rules on Palestinians ? Or Americans like getting ambushed by Isrelis ?

No set of rules is going to seem fair to everyone , and some of these people are accustomed to fighting.

sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #208 on: May 24, 2011, 07:12:03 PM »
So, are the repercussions not severe enough, you think??
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #209 on: May 24, 2011, 07:18:38 PM »
So, are the repercussions not severe enough, you think??

It would be so simple.

They could all become Christians , or the half that are not Jews could convert to Judaism , or the half that are not Muslim could convert to Islam.

They would rather die, of course< so what repercussions can be enough?