And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks

[Amianthus]

In fact it is a great parallel, because the people who were punished the worst had nothing to do with the concentration camps. Very similar to the Palestinians.

Many black South Africans fought on the side of the British.

[sirs]

Sirs, your lack of comprehension is astounding. Isreal is a U.S. protectorate, no matter how you look at it.

And Larry, your lack of historical perspective and context is truely astounding, regardless your hyperbolic opinion of how fascist and evil America is     

[_JS]

Many black South Africans fought on the side of the British.

As many as 100,000 black South Africans were placed in the concentration camps. I think the historical parallel works just fine. More than that the Nationalist Party feared uprisings similar to the Mau Mau in Kenya, which caused serious problems for the British residents there (including brutal deaths of entire families). Plus, some blacks were communists and all were susceptible to communist propoaganda. So for security interests they had to be separated, carry documentation, not meet in certain groups, and otherwise be controlled. After all, post World War II was not the time to go soft on communism.

[domer]

This conversation has degenerated from the laughable to the absurd. Israel is being castigated in vile terms without any nod by JS and Henny, our stewards of Catholic sentiment, to the context in which that beleagured nation's perhaps necessary policies of control are played out. What is the rhetoric on the Palestinian side? Far worse, what are the repeated terrorist acts on the Palestinian side? In league with these refugees, how often have contiguous and otherwise surrounding Arab (read now: Muslim, including the bete noir Iran) nations actually waged war to eradicate the State of Israel? Short of an eternal kumbaya moment, perhaps only conceivable to whacked-out, righteous Catholics, this history virtually compels Israel to take a strong defensive posture toward these proven threats. And for good measure, the conceit used by the Palestinian's ("once our land") dissipates almost entirely when the facts are brought to the fore that their connection to the land was incidental, not essential (in that they could have developed the exact same culture in another place), and that the surest method of defusing the roiling conflict is to have the concerned Arab/Muslim states absorb the mass of refugees as their own, as their citizens. Viewed in that light, the Palestinians are homeless only because, figuratively, they refuse to walk down the block to their sister's capacious home, were she to offer them temporary or permanent quarter so they could once and for all relinquish victimhood and embrace productive personhood.

[sirs]

Concentration camps were perfected by the British during the Boer Wars, Sirs. The Boers were often attacked by the various black African tribes, though some fought with the Boers and suffered at the concentration camps as well.   Most of the Boers at the concentration camps were women and children of whom 25% died. So yes, a huge amount of Boers died and they were attacked by neighbors.....And the Holocaust came before the creation of Israel

Missing the connection here Js.  Is this one of those 5 steps from Kevin Bacon tact?  Can you apply the logic please?  I haven't even seen the extermination effort yet?  And historically, the location of Isreal has been the place that they were allowed to relocate to, following the Nazi's extermination efforts, so no, the creation of Israel came FAR before the Holocaust.  No distinct parallel yet with South Africa, I'm afraid, outside of your impression of apartheid

Now, can we address the Arab equation yet, that will allow us to then deal with the Israeli equation?

[larry]

And Larry, your lack of historical perspective and context is truely astounding, regardless your hyperbolic opinion of how fascist and evil America is.

Both Iran and Iraq were victims of Reagan's duplicity. I think it is you Sirs who has a problem remembering what the  historical prospective is. Not to worry, if histroy teaches us anything, it teaches us that fascist states are never economically sustainable. If Germany is an example, the state of fascism is nothing more than the regime. Get rid of the regime and the nation will get back to promoting freedom and democracy.

[yellow_crane]

This conversation has degenerated from the laughable to the absurd. Israel is being castigated in vile terms without any nod by JS and Henny, our stewards of Catholic sentiment, to the context in which that beleagured nation's perhaps necessary policies of control are played out. What is the rhetoric on the Palestinian side? Far worse, what are the repeated terrorist acts on the Palestinian side? In league with these refugees, how often have contiguous and otherwise surrounding Arab (read now: Muslim, including the bete noir Iran) nations actually waged war to eradicate the State of Israel? Short of an eternal kumbaya moment, perhaps only conceivable to whacked-out, righteous Catholics, this history virtually compels Israel to take a strong defensive posture toward these proven threats. And for good measure, the conceit used by the Palestinian's ("once our land") dissipates almost entirely when the facts are brought to the fore that their connection to the land was incidental, not essential (in that they could have developed the exact same culture in another place), and that the surest method of defusing the roiling conflict is to have the concerned Arab/Muslim states absorb the mass of refugees as their own, as their citizens. Viewed in that light, the Palestinians are homeless only because, figuratively, they refuse to walk down the block to their sister's capacious home, were she to offer them temporary or permanent quarter so they could once and for all relinquish victimhood and embrace productive personhood.

Would they be allowed to pout?

If they did, would you be leading campfire songs to shake them of their nasty wasty gloom?

I especially liked the part where the Palestinians should relinquish victimhood once and for all.

I have assembled a number of your posts which I have labelled:  "Fawnings in Front of Lieberman"

[sirs]

<<And Larry, your lack of historical perspective and context is truely astounding, regardless your hyperbolic opinion of how fascist and evil America is.>>

Both Iran and Iraq were victims of Reagan's duplicity. I think it is you Sirs who has a problem remembering what the  historical prospective is. Not to worry, if histroy teaches us anything, it teaches us that fascist states are never economically sustainable.

Actually Larry, the historical perspective here (read, simple straightforward history), minus the hyperbolic unsubstantiated cries of a fascist America is
- The effort of Nazy Germany to literally exterminate the Jews
- The relocation of Isreal to its former historical/biblical region
- The near immediate attacks by the surrounding Arab countries
- The taking of land in a defensive measure to those attacks
- The RESPONDING of Israel's military to ongoing attacks, since '48 (read; nothing preemptive or offensive outside of a strike against Iraq's nuclear facility)

That's the historical perspective I'm referring to, & not some nebulous invalid claim of how fascist America is supposed to be

[Amianthus]

As many as 100,000 black South Africans were placed in the concentration camps.

You realize that the black Africans in the camps were paid labor?

[Henny]

This conversation has degenerated from the laughable to the absurd. Israel is being castigated in vile terms without any nod by JS and Henny, our stewards of Catholic sentiment... perhaps only conceivable to whacked-out, righteous Catholics

Domer, you've referred to JS' Catholicism in other threads, now here even to my Catholic background. Could you please tell me how Catholicism is relevant to the discussion?

The only connection I can make is the alleged actions (or lack thereof) of the Vatican during WWII. As I wasn't born until 1970, that hardly seems to apply. I am also confident that JS isn't nearly old enough for this to apply to him, either.

The only consideration left then is that you are using the Catholicism tactic as rhetoric to insult us. But why? Your arguments are lucid and intelligent as always - but just because we don't agree with you, you find it necessary to sling mud?

[domer]

Dear Henny: don't mistake acerbic criticism for anything but a topical rebuke. Trust me, otherwise I have but the highest genuine regard for you, a champion of goodness in so many ways, and for JS, whose friendship (internet though it is) I treasure among my most valuable.

As an honor student through 16 years of Catholic education, after which I began to learn the insidious institutional anti-Semitism (despite John Paul II's efforts at repair) that not only infected Catholic regard for Jews over the centuries but also infected the larger European ethos on that matter, arguably providing much of the passion and some of the structure for the horrible culmination realized by the Nazis, I am acutely sensitive to tone-deaf righteousness submerging a cacaphony of hate experienced nonetheless as the living word of the Lord, a Jew Himself, whose Church flourished by casting the Jews as foil and scapegoat.

[Henny]

Dear Henny: don't mistake acerbic criticism for anything but a topical rebuke. Trust me, otherwise I have but the highest genuine regard for you, a champion of goodness in so many ways, and for JS, whose friendship (internet though it is) I treasure among my most valuable.

As an honor student through 16 years of Catholic education, after which I began to learn the insidious institutional anti-Semitism (despite John Paul II's efforts at repair) that not only infected Catholic regard for Jews over the centuries but also infected the larger European ethos on that matter, arguably providing much of the passion and some of the structure for the horrible culmination realized by the Nazis, I am acutely sensitive to tone-deaf righteousness submerging a cacaphony of hate experienced nonetheless as the living word of the Lord, a Jew Himself, whose Church flourished by casting the Jews as foil and scapegoat.

Ah, Domer, and here we have the post-Vatican II guilt that cradle-Catholics of that generation have experienced. 

But wouldn't you say that things have changed since John Paul II's attempts at repairing these issues? I personally believe that Catholics at large have become very sensitive to the issue, which is why I didn't easily connect Catholicism with the current debate.

Another difference is that I draw a line between the actions of a government (Israeli) and the people - both Israeli Jews and Jews around the world. I try to be very careful to always refer to "the Israeli government," and never just "the Jews." Throughout history, rulers, regimes and governments have come and gone, and I believe that through the lens of history we will look back on this as a time of great injustice for the Palestinian people. However, governments can and do change, and I believe that ultimately the Israeli government will do so.

[Henny]

More Arab actions... for Sirs. 

Palestinians under Arab pressure to meet demands
Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:25 AM ET
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2007-02-24T162505Z_01_L24425745_RTRUKOC_0_US-PALESTINIANS.xml&src=rss

By Adam Entous

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Jordan's King Abdullah said in an interview broadcast on Saturday there was broad Arab agreement that a Palestinian unity government must adhere to the demands of the Quartet of Middle East mediators.

King Abdullah's comments on Israeli television were the first from an Arab leader to cast doubt on the willingness of major Arab donors to sidestep a U.S.-led embargo of the Hamas-led government unless it commits to recognizing Israel, renouncing violence and accepting interim peace deals.

Since the unity government agreement was signed in Mecca earlier this month, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah and Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal have been lobbying Arab and European countries to lift the economic embargo, which has pushed the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority to the brink of financial collapse and increased poverty among the people.

After meeting with French President Jacques Chirac in Paris on Saturday, Abbas said he was encouraged by the "wait and see" approach taken by the Quartet, comprised of the United States, the European Union, Russia and the United Nations.

"We hope that the embargo will be lifted ... If the situation were to continue as it currently is, the Palestinian people would suffer," Abbas said.

Speaking in Khartoum, Meshaal said: "The U.S. administration has no choice but to respect the will of the Palestinians and the Arab support for the Palestinian accord."

But King Abdullah, in an interview with Israel's Channel 2 television, said he understood Israeli concerns that the power-sharing deal fails to meet the Quartet's demands.

"You're not alone on this," he said. "There's international common ground -- not just Western but also Arab and to an extent Muslim -- that believe that there have to be certain criteria that the new government has to accept if we're going to move the process forward."

ARAB INITIATIVE

King Abdullah said the new government "will have to adhere to the Quartet conditions". The king, who became ruler of Jordan in 1999, four years after the country signed a peace treaty with Israel, backs Abbas and a renewal of peace talks.

Jordanian officials had privately supported U.S.-led efforts to isolate the Hamas-led government that took power after winning January 2006 elections, increasing pressure on the militant group to embraced Middle East peace moves.

"It's not just ... the international players, but also the Arab countries are also expecting the new Palestinian government to adhere to the policies that we have set out in the Quartet, and in the Arab Quartet also," King Abdullah said, referring to Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the United Arab Emirates.

The unity deal contains a vague promise to "respect" Israeli-Palestinian pacts. But it does not commit the incoming government to abiding by those pacts, nor to recognizing Israel and renouncing violence as the Quartet demanded.

King Abdullah said Abbas should be given "the mandate to start negotiations with the Israelis," and the new government should be in "full compliance with the Arab Accord as well as international commitments".

The Arab initiative, launched in 2002, would trade diplomatic recognition for Israel's withdrawal from land it occupied in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.

King Abdullah said the initiative was being re-launched and could draw broader support from Muslim countries.

Abbas's power-sharing deal with Hamas has widened rifts within the Quartet. Washington wants to shun the new government to keep pressure on Hamas. Russia and some European states favor a softer line in order to support an agreement that has stemmed fierce fighting between Fatah and Hamas factions.

Four Palestinians were killed in clashes between rival clans in the Gaza Strip on Saturday, but both sides said the fighting was not motivated by political rivalries.

(Additional reporting by Francois Murphy in Paris, Suleiman al-Khalidi in Amman and Aziz El-Kaissouni in Khartoum)

[domer]

Have Catholic attitudes changed, Henny? Perhaps superficially. In a top-down organization like the Church, where reform so often starts at the pinnacle, a new edict may be heard, dimly understood and dumbly embraced without any genuine let alone profound change of heart occurring in what is otherwise a rote reaction to an edict, not a heartfelt epiphany of the soul. True individual changes of heart, let alone massive organizational changes of ethos, may take eons to accomplish, if ever accomplished at all. For example, the Emancipation Proclamation was signed in 1863. Yet now even, has racism been banished? My overall point (and I have to go) is that virulent anti-Semitism, now most famously harbored by some Arabs, is insidious and corrosive and cannot be trusted. My advice to Israel would be, despite any welcome change in government, to proceed very cautiously, putting security first, and on the path to peace don't even bother trusting, but instead verify, verify, verify.

[sirs]

More Arab actions... for Sirs. 

Don't you mean more Jordan action?  More "Arab action" from the same country that's been providing some Arab actions?