And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks

[Michael Tee]

sirs:  <<Oh, I'm not "getting into it" [UN resolutions and who broke what and when] simply pointing out a fact, before the UN became so overtly anti-semetic and uncredible>>

OK sirs, exactly WHEN did the UN become "so overtly anti-semitic?"

from the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949:

<<Article 49:   . . . The Occupying Power shall not . . . transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.>>

BTW, Israel ratified this "anti-Semitic" convention (with one irrelevant reservation relating to the naming of the Red Cross) on Dec. 8, 1949.
 http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebSign?ReadForm&id=375&ps=P

But you don't have to explain why you're "not getting into it."  That's self-evident.  Especially in view of your earlier assertion (which I happen to agree with) that this all goes back to root causes.  And the root cause of all root causes in this case is land.

[The_Professor]

I swore I was going to leave this topic alone, but I simply can't. I have to address a couple of things here.

You seem to continue to gloss right over what has led to israel's harsh policies...

And you continue to gloss over what caused the Palestinians to be pissed off in the first place.

I vote for loving your neighbor and your enemies. I vote for human dignity. I vote for not pushing your fellow man into homelands of privation. I vote for not judging men and women based only on their race, religion, or beliefs. I vote for not having 93% of the land reserved for people of a specific religion.

Good for you.  Now, can we get the Arab neighbors to buy into that?  When the majority come around to my side, I'll then endeavor to come over to yours.

See Sirs, you can't "vote" for that - no one can. Because even if the Palestinians start behaving themselves and the walls come down and the Israelis and the Palestinians are kissing and hugging in reconciliation, you will never get that. Israel, by Israeli law, only allows Jews to be citizens. And some Arab Jews don't even get that (the Jews that lived in the region before 1948).

Yet you discuss UN resolutions that were passed "before the UN became so overtly anti-semetic and uncredible." Did you know the UN passed a resolution calling for the right of return for Palestinians in 1948 (after the war)? Did you know that they did so even after an Israeli terrorist murdered UN mediator Folke Bernadotte? [/color]

Yea.........and?

What do you mean with "Yea... and?" JS was refuting your statement that the UN suddenly became "overtly anti-semitic and uncredible." Perhaps more correctly put, they recognized Palestinian rights a long, long time ago. (In your language that means they've been anti-semitic for a long time.)

AlQeada and other like organizations are also pretty small compared to the U.S.  A fraction of our population, and highly improbable of carrying out their agenda of converting, subjugating, or killing every non-Muslim, starting with Western Civilization.  Yet the mindset, driven by religious fervor, and the belief that even in killing themselves, as long as they kills hundreds, if not thousands of innocents, they bring such an agenda closer to what they believe is absolutely inevitable, requires us to deal with them right here, right now. 

You know, I've been reading this line of crap in a few threads recently. What makes you think they want to convert us and subjugate us? First things first... they DON'T WANT US. They are fighting Western interference in the Middle East and interference with the Muslim people. But really, converting us is not an issue. I suppose this is the line of rhetoric used to excite conservative Americans... "They are a threat to our "Christian nation."

The nation's that refuse to recognize Israel only do so because of internal political reasons. They aren't idiots, they know Israel exists and they can't do anything about it.

Boy, how convenient.  So bascially you're saying they don't have to do anything.  That all this rests on Israel.  Amazing.  Sad, but amazing.  So, what's Israel supposed to do, that will also guarantee their security and remove the threat of Terrorist attacks??

No, this is domestic policy that is even recognized by the U.S. The leaders of countries that are sympathetic to Israel, for example, still have to appease their own people or they risk revolution and a severe worsening of the problems in the Middle East. It is a balance they have to play out, recognizing the opinions of their own people while trying to keep the peace.

Henny said: " you continue to gloss over what caused the Palestinians to be pissed off in the first place."

Well, let's see. What is now known as the Jews lived in this land with what is now known as the Palestinians many many years before the Jews were even a people (Abraham et al), but for Palestinians to say they were there first is not entirely accurate. So, if htey are upset from that view, then I simply do not see it. If, however, the yare upset by their treatment by the Jews, then THAT is a different matter. The Jews and Palestininas both have made erros over the years, but to place a majority blame upon one party, I beleive, is not supportable.

Henny said: "See Sirs, you can't "vote" for that - no one can. Because even if the Palestinians start behaving themselves and the walls come down and the Israelis and the Palestinians are kissing and hugging in reconciliation, you will never get that. Israel, by Israeli law, only allows Jews to be citizens. And some Arab Jews don't even get that (the Jews that lived in the region before 1948)."

I would surmsie that the Jews might let Arabs become citizens if they acted more like people invested in the Isreali state and not simply residents there. No way to prove that, of course. But then again, this goes back to other comments by both Sirs and Plane ot the effect that the Muslim community cannot even police themselves. Isreal knows this as well, so why would they do what is uggested here and open themselves up for violence? I can just see it now: Isreal enacts the policy you proposed (everyone live in equal harmony). And then, soon thereafter, resident Islamic fighters blow up a bomb in a marketplace and what do the resident Muslims do? ZIP. So the cycle contimes. Until they can police their own, Isreal would be a fool to do what you suggest. Henny, be realisitc: if "moderate" Muslims cannot contian the more "radical" elements of their society, they will not garner the respect they need and deserve. And, I know, now you're gonig to say it isn't that easy to do that and my reply is "Physician, heal thyself!" You simply MUST do so if your aims are to be realistically furthered!

Henny said: "You know, I've been reading this line of crap in a few threads recently. What makes you think they want to convert us and subjugate us? First things first... they DON'T WANT US. They are fighting Western interference in the Middle East and interference with the Muslim people. But really, converting us is not an issue. I suppose this is the line of rhetoric used to excite conservative Americans... "They are a threat to our "Christian nation."

Well, read your Koran lately? I've read it several times and it is indeed inflammatory toward those not of the faith. This is evidenced by the harsh treatment of Christians in many Muslim lands such as in Saudi Arabia. An example: A friend of mine got arrested and forcefully deported a few years ago by the Saudis because he GAVE WAY Bibles on a street corner (He didn't utter a word). You wanna go on my street corder and give away Korans here? Go for it.

They want MORE than for us to leave them alone, they want to forcefully convert us to the Faith or, if we are not willing, to kill us bad bad infidels. We have a Palestinian here at work and he speaks this policy quite frequently. He does say, though, that he would be merciful and not kill us but we would have to pay add'l taxes, all these funds to go toward Muslim charities.

[Henny]

Henny said: " you continue to gloss over what caused the Palestinians to be pissed off in the first place."

Well, let's see. What is now known as the Jews lived in this land with what is now known as the Palestinians many many years before the Jews were even a people (Abraham et al), but for Palestinians to say they were there first is not entirely accurate. So, if htey are upset from that view, then I simply do not see it. If, however, the yare upset by their treatment by the Jews, then THAT is a different matter. The Jews and Palestininas both have made erros over the years, but to place a majority blame upon one party, I beleive, is not supportable.

Professor, with all due respect, I've been trying to avoid your scriptural justifications for Israel. I respect your religious beliefs and am sensitive to your convictions. However, despite references in this thread to my Catholic background (which might imply that I agree with you), my views are quite different.

Henny said: "See Sirs, you can't "vote" for that - no one can. Because even if the Palestinians start behaving themselves and the walls come down and the Israelis and the Palestinians are kissing and hugging in reconciliation, you will never get that. Israel, by Israeli law, only allows Jews to be citizens. And some Arab Jews don't even get that (the Jews that lived in the region before 1948)."

I would surmsie that the Jews might let Arabs become citizens if they acted more like people invested in the Isreali state and not simply residents there. No way to prove that, of course. But then again, this goes back to other comments by both Sirs and Plane ot the effect that the Muslim community cannot even police themselves. Isreal knows this as well, so why would they do what is uggested here and open themselves up for violence? I can just see it now: Isreal enacts the policy you proposed (everyone live in equal harmony). And then, soon thereafter, resident Islamic fighters blow up a bomb in a marketplace and what do the resident Muslims do? ZIP. So the cycle contimes. Until they can police their own, Isreal would be a fool to do what you suggest. Henny, be realisitc: if "moderate" Muslims cannot contian the more "radical" elements of their society, they will not garner the respect they need and deserve. And, I know, now you're gonig to say it isn't that easy to do that and my reply is "Physician, heal thyself!" You simply MUST do so if your aims are to be realistically furthered!

No Professor, even if the Muslims stop blowing things up, non-Jews are not allowed to be citizens of Israel. You cannot be a citizen of Israel, I cannot be a citizen of Israel... no one but a Jew can be a citizen. This is the point I was trying to make. It is a religious nation, and although they do allow tightly restricted residency of others, citizenship by Muslims, Christians and all other religions is not allowed.

Henny said: "You know, I've been reading this line of crap in a few threads recently. What makes you think they want to convert us and subjugate us? First things first... they DON'T WANT US. They are fighting Western interference in the Middle East and interference with the Muslim people. But really, converting us is not an issue. I suppose this is the line of rhetoric used to excite conservative Americans... "They are a threat to our "Christian nation."

Well, read your Koran lately? I've read it several times and it is indeed inflammatory toward those not of the faith. This is evidenced by the harsh treatment of Christians in many Muslim lands such as in Saudi Arabia. An example: A friend of mine got arrested and forcefully deported a few years ago by the Saudis because he GAVE WAY Bibles on a street corner (He didn't utter a word). You wanna go on my street corder and give away Korans here? Go for it.

They want MORE than for us to leave them alone, they want to forcefully convert us to the Faith or, if we are not willing, to kill us bad bad infidels. We have a Palestinian here at work and he speaks this policy quite frequently. He does say, though, that he would be merciful and not kill us but we would have to pay add'l taxes, all these funds to go toward Muslim charities.

I've read the Qu'ran many times. I am married to a Muslim. My son is a Muslim. I live in a country that is 97% Muslim. I would say that yes, the average peaceful Muslim hopes and prays that you convert to Islam for the salvation of your soul. I would also say that most devout Christians pray that non-Christians are saved by Christ for the salvation of their souls.

I am lucky to be able to freely practice my faith if I so choose while living in Jordan. (For that matter, in January I visited Jesus' baptism site at Bethany Beyond Jordan for the Epiphany celebration... just for the experience.) Other countries are different. My husband is seriously courting a lucrative job offer in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. I've done my homework - it is illegal to proselytize in Saudi Arabia. That's the law. Your friend broke the law. If he didn't know the law, then it was his own fault. Yes, he should have been deported for breaking their law!

I fail to see how the example of your friend proves that they all want to convert us to Islam by force. However, the Muttawa in Saudi Arabia are not really the issue here. We are talking about radical groups like Al-Qaeda... and they don't want us. They want us to stop interfering. They wanted our troops out of Saudi Arabia. They wanted American influence out of the Middle East. But they are extremists, and they don't give a damn about your soul.

[domer]

What you fail to adress, Henny, is why the Jews can't have their little Jewish nation both (as they see it, righteously so I would contest) as a fulfillment of their covenant, a matter of very sober religious importance, and as a refuge and rehabilitation center from a nearly-successful genocide. Further, the religious Muslim states -- notably Saudi Arabia and Iran, and others -- surely fall far short of the Western idea of a liberal democracy. Why is it that they don't draw your condemnation?

[Henny]

What you fail to adress, Henny, is why the Jews can't have their little Jewish nation both (as they see it, righteously so I would contest) as a fulfillment of their covenant, a matter of very sober religious importance, and as a refuge and rehabilitation center from a nearly-successful genocide. Further, the religious Muslim states -- notably Saudi Arabia and Iran, and others -- surely fall far short of the Western idea of a liberal democracy. Why is it that they don't draw your condemnation?

Domer, I actually don't condemn them OR Israel. I was addressing a sub-topic that arose between Js and Sirs, and the ill-informed belief that Arabs would get full rights and citizenship in Israel if they "behaved." I then went on to demonstrate why it is a moot point - only a person with a Jewish ancestry is allowed to be a citizen in Israel.

[domer]

Aside from tarrying in the land of trivia, that is, no point beyond the specific factual tidbit, your statement nonetheless implicates at least tangentially a criticism of Israel: not only are Arab lives hard in that land, but they are structurally so, thereby (with many other factors) thwarting the advancement you so deftly champion.

[sirs]

I have a few minutes, so I'll see what damage control I can apply here

And you continue to gloss over what caused the Palestinians to be pissed off in the first place.

This apparently would be the chicken & the egg arguement.  "in the 1st place" initially the Palestinians were treated perfectly reasonable in '47.  It was after the attacks by nearly every one of Israel's neighbors that began to change the policies that were implimented in the 2nd place.  No?

Good for you.  Now, can we get the Arab neighbors to buy into that?  When the majority come around to my side, I'll then endeavor to come over to yours.

See Sirs, you can't "vote" for that - no one can. Because even if the Palestinians start behaving themselves and the walls come down and the Israelis and the Palestinians are kissing and hugging in reconciliation, you will never get that. Israel, by Israeli law, only allows Jews to be citizens. And some Arab Jews don't even get that.

Are you trying to say I can never become a Jewish citizen?  so their not targeting Palestinians, they're targeting anyone not jewish, no?  and one more time, this is not about the "Palestinians behaving themselves"  This has, and cont to be those elements of the Arab (& Persian) persuasion that continue to use & abuse the Palestinians to justify their overt and very publically acknowledged agenda of ridding the region of Israel

Yea.........and?

What do you mean with "Yea... and?" JS was refuting your statement that the UN suddenly became "overtly anti-semitic and uncredible." Perhaps more correctly put, they recognized Palestinian rights a long, long time ago.

Perhaps.  And just as perhaps, Israel recognized the obvious risk to their livelyhood, if a majority of non-Jewish folks, with no interest in Israeli's right to exist, were allowed to integrate withing the Israeli governing process, and in turn watch Israel cease to exist much more slowing, thru legislative and executive actions, than Hamas might prefer via the bomb.

You know, I've been reading this line of crap in a few threads recently. What makes you think they want to convert us and subjugate us? First things first... they DON'T WANT US. They are fighting Western interference in the Middle East and interference with the Muslim people. But really, converting us is not an issue. I suppose this is the line of rhetoric used to excite conservative Americans... "They are a threat to our "Christian nation."

Ok, now you're getting a tad hyperbolic, Miss Henny.  One more time, I'm referring to the radical elements of Islam, those who have their own mutated enterpretation of the Koran, who have made it painfully clear of a Muslim led world goal.  This has zip to do with Christianity, and my guess is you injected it, just to try changing direction.  The Koran does speak very specifically in the need that it be followed, or that non-muslims be subjugated to it.  And it's those radical elements who've made that their purpose.  Did you know that Usama at NO TIME referenced the "plight of the Palestinians" nor our "interferrence" in the Middle East, until AFTER we took his organization down in Afghanistan?  Prior to 2001, not a peep, but all of a sudden, it's about our interferrence?  Interferrence towards their goal of Muslim control perhaps   

Boy, how convenient.  So bascially you're saying they don't have to do anything.  That all this rests on Israel.  Amazing.  Sad, but amazing.  So, what's Israel supposed to do, that will also guarantee their security and remove the threat of Terrorist attacks??

No, this is domestic policy that is even recognized by the U.S. The leaders of countries that are sympathetic to Israel, for example, still have to appease their own people or they risk revolution and a severe worsening of the problems in the Middle East. It is a balance they have to play out, recognizing the opinions of their own people while trying to keep the peace.

Ahh, you too Miss Henny?  Unfortunate.  All rests on little Israel to change its ways.  All rests on Israel to assume the Arab factions bent on seeing it's destruction will be all nice nice, once Palestinians are allowed to reintegrate, Iran will cease it's nuclear innuendo aimed at Israel, and all will be at peace.  Because...well, hey have to appease the Arab elements that hate Israel.  We can't be trying to alter their mindset, they might lose power, and a government that really hates Israel might take over.  My apologies for the acute sarcasm, but oh boy     

[sirs]

As a side note, I was very appreciative of the Professor's additional commentary.  Execellent and well articulated

[Plane]

I would surmsie that the Jews might let Arabs become citizens if they acted more like people invested in the Isreali state and not simply residents there. No way to prove that, of course. But then again, this goes back to other comments by both Sirs and Plane ot the effect that the Muslim community cannot even police themselves. Isreal knows this as well, so why would they do what is uggested here and open themselves up for violence? I can just see it now: Isreal enacts the policy you proposed (everyone live in equal harmony). And then, soon thereafter, resident Islamic fighters blow up a bomb in a marketplace and what do the resident Muslims do? ZIP. So the cycle contimes. Until they can police their own, Isreal would be a fool to do what you suggest. Henny, be realisitc: if "moderate" Muslims cannot contian the more "radical" elements of their society, they will not garner the respect they need and deserve. And, I know, now you're gonig to say it isn't that easy to do that and my reply is "Physician, heal thyself!" You simply MUST do so if your aims are to be realistically furthered!

No Professor, even if the Muslims stop blowing things up, non-Jews are not allowed to be citizens of Israel. You cannot be a citizen of Israel, I cannot be a citizen of Israel... no one but a Jew can be a citizen. This is the point I was trying to make. It is a religious nation, and although they do allow tightly restricted residency of others, citizenship by Muslims, Christians and all other religions is not allowed.

   There are Arab , Druze ,Samaritan and other citizens of Israel that are not Jews , but their minority status is not easy to join in, most of them were resident or decendants of residents of the origional territory of Irsael.

      I think tht he laws are as they are because the Jew want a land for Jews , if they made citizenship more availible to non-Jews there could be a wave of immagration that would soon outvote the  Isreli Jews .

[_JS]

I want to respond, but I must admit that I don't see this thread as going anywhere productive any longer. I believe a lot of people wish to speak and very few wish to listen (including myself) and it is unfortunate, especially considering we have the opportunity to hear first hand accounts from someone who lives so very close to the situation.

Domer, to answer your question, perhaps this is the way forward Link or Link. I sure hope so.

Professor, the very same statements were made about the Jews when it was their zionist organizations such as Lehi that were murdering UN ambassadors and planting bombs. Think about it, which side's radicals have actually murdered a Prime Minister of Israel? It wasn't the Palestinians. So you might want to take a moment and think about making such blanket statements before attacking the entire religion of Islam.

Plane, there are very, very few Samaritans left and historically they have been a very discriminated minority (i.e. that is the entire point of the Parable of the Good Samaritan) and in fact they are Jews, just a minority sect of Judaism. The druze and Arabs (both Christians and Muslims) are exactly what I have been discussing when mentioning apartheid. Is it not apartheid to have a city then tell an Arab physician who wishes to live in said city that he cannot based upon his race alone? Is that not the definition of apartheid, right there?

The Koran does speak very specifically in the need that it be followed, or that non-muslims be subjugated to it.

Sirs, I'd like to address this point. Professor makes a similar point and I think we should make a comparison to the Old Testament and then discuss the Koran if you like. First of all where does the Koran say this?

Now, if we read the Old Testament we can see that it isn't exactly friendly to enemies of the Israeli people either. So, are you making a very fair comparison?

Plenty of Christians condemn people through their own interpretation of the Book of Revelations as well. Again, is that a fair comparison?

Listen.

My problem here is that there is apartheid in what is supposed to be a democratic state. There are citizens of Israel who are treated as lesser people because of their race and religion. You may call it by a different name if you wish, you may justify it if you wish. For me, there is no such thing as conditional apartheid or conditional bigotry. It was wrong in South Africa and it is wrong in Israel.

It is not an evil perpetudated by the Jewish people, but by the Jewish government. It is mostly a recent phenomenon and despite popular belief in the United States, it is by no means supported by all Israelis. As Israelis stopped supporting the war against Lebanon in 2006, I sincerely believe they will stop supporting these policies of apartheid. As they intermarry with one another and a general liberal (European use of the word) attitude spreads, I am confident that these policies will end. The sad part is how many people will die, on both sides, between then and now.

One area that is not understood well by many here is that there is a left and right in Israel, but there is also a Zionist and anti-Zionist belief amongst the Jewish people. In other words, one can be a leftist, but also a Zionist (in general Israel was founded by leftist Zionists) and one can be a rightist Zionist (Sharon). One can be a leftist anti-zionist (Davis) and a rightist anti-zionist (a particular group of Orthodox). This colours a lot of the politics of the Jewish state.

As for my beliefs, I stated: "I vote for loving your neighbor and your enemies. I vote for human dignity. I vote for not pushing your fellow man into homelands of privation. I vote for not judging men and women based only on their race, religion, or beliefs. I vote for not having 93% of the land reserved for people of a specific religion."

I believe in the Gospel. And while Sirs may put conditions on that belief and others may say it should have died 2000 years ago. I don't believe in placing "conditions" upon it, nor do I believe it is dead (or should be). I believe in the dignity of man, no matter who they are. And yes, I believe in that in all nations, be it Saudi Arabia, Israel, the United States, Iran, or Malta. It is unconditional love for my fellow brothers and sisters, be they oppressors or those being deprived.

The Gospel is not easy. It isn't quiet and it doesn't take the calmest roads that conform most easily to society's beliefs. It sits with the poor, the afflicted, the deprived, the hurting, and those in the most pain and provides comfort. It makes life uneasy for those who oppress, punish, and simply conform with the most egregious of sins and do not love their neighbors or their enemies.   

[Henny]

JS, What a fantastic response to the pending issues in this thread!

I want to respond, but I must admit that I don't see this thread as going anywhere productive any longer.

Unless we want to see if we can make it the longest lasting thread in the history of the forum. 

[sirs]

The Koran does speak very specifically in the need that it be followed, or that non-muslims be subjugated to it.

Sirs, I'd like to address this point. Professor makes a similar point and I think we should make a comparison to the Old Testament and then discuss the Koran if you like. First of all where does the Koran say this?   Now, if we read the Old Testament we can see that it isn't exactly friendly to enemies of the Israeli people either. So, are you making a very fair comparison?

I had a feeling this tact would come up.  1st off, if you really want me to google those passages in the Koran for you, I could.  However, you've already demonstrated my need not to, by referencing the Bible.  I never cliamed the bible didn't have passages, that taken absolutely verbatim and/or out of context, paints a negative picture towards non-beilievers.  That's not the issue.  The issue is in those (and more so the # of those) that have adopted those passages as absolute...must be followed...must kill the non-believer.  There's a few radical Christians that would want to stone an adulterer or a homosexual, or a non-Christian.  But they don't for whatever reason.  Yet radical militants within the Muslim community not only have gone public with their pledges, not only have made it public with their actions, but are numberings perhaps in the tens of thousands, if not more.  There's an old saying, not even referenced by the Bible..."ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS"  So the comparison is in those people who have mutated the peaceful religion Islam, to justify their murdering of innocent men, women & children.  Does the Koran have those "not so friendly" passages in it, that practically demand it being followed or else kinda language?  Yea, just as the Bible does.  But this isn't trying to compare religious books, or even religion.  This is comparing radicals who have hijacked that religion in the name of their God.  And currently 1 side is becoming a global threat, and hint...it's not the Christian radical

My problem here is that there is apartheid in what is supposed to be a democratic state. There are citizens of Israel who are treated as lesser people because of their race and religion. You may call it by a different name if you wish, you may justify it if you wish. For me, there is no such thing as conditional apartheid or conditional bigotry. It was wrong in South Africa and it is wrong in Israel.

And my problem is that's not the problem behind Islamofascism and Militant Islam.  That's a side note, and as much a problem as you believe it is or how much of apartheid as you believe Israel is running, you yourself keep shooting down the biggest need in addressing not just it, but in dealing with militant Islam.  Those Arab (& Persian) countries apparently simply can't be seen condemning or going after those in their own ethnicity who have hijaced and mutated their religion in order to kills thousands upon thousands of innocent men, women & children.  No, that's too geoPC.  You keep putting this all on Israel, as well as trying to have us simply "turn our Christian cheek" to that threat.  Israel needs to change it's ways and then pray to God their actions would be seen as postive, vs an act of progressive weakening, byt those who have pledged to see the destruction of Israel. 

You even suggest & advocate "talking" to them as if that will make everything better if we only knew what made them so angry.  I know what's making them angry, and no amount of "talking" is going to change that, only give them more time to heal from their wonds, arm themselves more, and in Iran, trying getting that nuke finished.   Yea, I realize that recently the WH changed it's course, and have agreed, thru Iraq to "talk" to messers Syria & Iran.  Bad move in my book.  Something I can actually criticise Bush for

As well intentioned, and even Christian, as that is for you to suggest such efforts js, fails to deal with what is at the core a malignancy that will not go away, not be reasoned with, simply keep killing

I believe in the Gospel. And while Sirs may put conditions on that belief and others may say it should have died 2000 years ago. I don't believe in placing "conditions" upon it, nor do I believe it is dead (or should be). I believe in the dignity of man, no matter who they are. And yes, I believe in that in all nations, be it Saudi Arabia, Israel, the United States, Iran, or Malta. It is unconditional love for my fellow brothers and sisters, be they oppressors or those being deprived.

Well stated, and well intentioned Js.  I'll give you that.  And on a completely different note, I do like Miss Henny's idea of making this the saloon's longest thread, both in responses and reads     

[Amianthus]

And on a completely different note, I do like Miss Henny's idea of making this the saloon's longest thread, both in responses and reads     

You still have a bit of a way to go to catch up to this thread - but I just helped you out.

 

[sirs]

And on a completely different note, I do like Miss Henny's idea of making this the saloon's longest thread, both in responses and reads     

You still have a bit of a way to go to catch up to this thread - but I just helped you out.

 

You're too kind, Ami         

[Henny]

And my problem is that's not the problem behind Islamofascism and Militant Islam.  That's a side note, and as much a problem as you believe it is or how much of apartheid as you believe Israel is running, you yourself keep shooting down the biggest need in addressing not just it, but in dealing with militant Islam.

And militant Islam has become a problem for Israel because...? (This "chicken and the egg" argument is getting old.)

Yea, I realize that recently the WH changed it's course, and have agreed, thru Iraq to "talk" to messers Syria & Iran.  Bad move in my book.  Something I can actually criticise Bush for

And something I applaud the government for, although they're doing it obviously not happy about doing it. I know you're of the "just blow 'em up" mentality Sirs, and with all due respect, I am SO GLAD you're not in charge of any military efforts.