Author Topic: Blame the Flag!  (Read 9963 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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Blame the Flag!
« on: June 26, 2015, 09:57:10 PM »
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Blame the Flag!
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2015, 10:15:27 PM »
  It is bad to waste a crisis.

 

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Blame the Flag!
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2015, 02:40:45 PM »
There is always a longing to do SOMETHING positive when something negative happens.

You could say that it could be taken as a slap in the face of the Confederate soldiers.
But it's not like they did not need their faces slapped.

The few plantation owners were parasites on the labor unwilling slaves.
The many who did not own a plantation were either saps for dying to defend the few, or wanted to become plantation owners themselves.

Yeah, sure, they were brave.
Adolf Hitler was also brave: he got the Iron Cross for valor, not easy to earn.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Blame the Flag!
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2015, 04:21:46 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/06/22/confederate-flag-and-party-lincoln.html?intcmp=obinsite

Nice article , but most of the enlightenment is reading the unenlightened comments that follow.

[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]


      Actually, I do not expect Republicans , as Republicans, to defend the Confederate flag very much. Bringing the Confederacy to defeat is seminal and formative to the Republicans .

     Irony is rife , that freedom demands this symbol not be forbidden , but that year by year it less and less means freedom.

     So do Republicans defend the first amendment rights of those still fond of this flag ? Or join the Democrats in pandering to the oppressive lovers of freedom?

      They have the right to do both, and I fully expect them to.

   

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Blame the Flag!
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2015, 06:34:23 PM »
No one claims that individuals do not have the right to fly, stick or tattoo the Rebel flag anywhere they choose.
The issue is whether it should be flown by any governmental entity on public property.

The Germans banned the swastika for individual use, but here in the USA, a person can stick a swastika, a hammer and sickle, a Riding Sun, Che Guevara, Chairman Mao of Lenin, Stalin or Hitler anywhere they with.

I am sure Ol' Strom Thurmond was very cool with the Rebel flag, both as a Democrat and later as a Republican. The same with Trent Lott.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Blame the Flag!
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2015, 07:41:48 PM »
  Can a statefull of people choose an otherwise unpopular symbol to display?

     I admit that the first amendment does not protect government agencies or governments , the first amendment is a protection against the government.

Plane

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Re: Blame the Flag!
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2015, 08:10:37 PM »
Smith says it well.
Quote

EllSmith
3 days ago





I think it was Winston Churchill who said, "History does not repeat itself; human nature does."




When an object that symbolizes human nature is removed from both public view and discourse, the human nature and events attached to that symbol disappear as well.

Was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia created to symbolize hatred, racism, and slavery? No. Did people die for supporting the sovereignty of individual state's rights under that flag? Yes. Was slavery a part of those individuals state's rights? Yes.

The symbolism attached to this flag is not a question of "is the glass half-full, or is the glass half empty". The fact of the matter is that the flag has come to represent the fight against tyranny, on the one hand, while endorsing tyranny, on the other.

It is this conflict of ideas which, in my opinion, makes it absolutely necessary to keep this flag in the public eye. So long as people see that flag, discourse on the dichotomy of its symbolism is possible. Remove it from public view, and you remove both a symbol of fighting for freedom (which, in turn, makes future slavery more possible, if not inevitable) AND a symbol that slavery took place in this country and must never return.


Without visible, tangible reminders of what people are capable (acts both noble and terrible), human nature will repeat itself. And, as we have seen throughout history, when human nature strays to the "Dark Side", horrific things happen.

For this reason, the battle flag must be viewed in the proper context. It is not inherently good, nor is it inherently evil. It started out as a flag. It has come to represent opposite viewpoints about a terrible time in our history. Zealous adherents to both viewpoints have wrapped the flag around their particular emotional baggage.

Strip away the emotions, however, and you have a conversation piece. Moreover, you have a conversation starter, not a conversation ender.

Fly the flag and keep the conversation flowing, so that we may all be empowered. Putting it away puts discourse out of reach, too, and diminishes all of us.

We need reminders, especially symbols, of human nature's capabilities, so that we can intelligently choose to repeat the good acts and to shun the bad ones.

Never has "out of sight, out of mind" been so dangerous.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/06/22/confederate-flag-and-party-lincoln.html?intcmp=obinsite

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Blame the Flag!
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2015, 10:32:07 AM »
I wonder if he thinks that the Nazi swastika needs to be kept alive as well. The Nazi ideology that many Germans voted for was against the rampant inflation of the German economy, which collapsed because of the huge WWI reparations Germany was forced to pay. The Nazis started huge building projects, like the autobahns, draining swamps, building airports and putting millions of people to work again. Of course, this was done by taking money from the Jews, many of whom profited when impoverished Germans pawned their gold and other valuables. Jews were seen as unpatriotic opportunists. Most of them were not, but the ones the Germans borrowed money from were not likely to complain when the government shut them down and used the money to create jobs.

Of course, the Nazis went from bad to worse, and the premise of the Nazi Party was racist and based on exploiting a minority that was helpless to defend itself.
Rather like the Confederate States of America.

Hitler copied a LOT of his ideas from the Americans:  The Pennsylvania Turnpike inspired the Autobahns, the Model T inspired the Volkswagen (originally called the Kraft Durch Freude ~ Strength through Joy),  The American Eugenics movement inspired the elimination of mentally and physically impaired people, and the labor camps staffed with members of "inferior races" were inspired by American slavery.  Nazism can be seen as the Dark Side of American Progress.

Prior to the Civil War, it is usually ignored that the South won a lot of victories over the North in the courts. The Dred Scott decision made it possible for slaveholders to bring their slaves to the North, it made kidnapping free Black and enslaving them a very lucrative occupation, and the South was very close to making California effectively a slave state.

The North was NOT persecuting the South, other than requiring Southern ports to pay the usual taxes on imports and the like into the federal government. The South fired the first shot, not the North. 

The guy who wrote this  will not be disappointed. All that has happened is that the Rebel flag has been banned from PUBLIC places. Any fool can still stick it on his bumper, fly the flag from his yard, have it tattooed anywhere he chooses on his body, and this is sure to continue.

I would not be surprised if we start seeing more and more Rebel flags all over the place. Just as gun nuts felt threatened and bought more guns after Obama was elected, they will feel that their Rebel flag is threatened, and there will be no shortage of  flags available, once importers get rolling printing up the things. After Juniorbush declared his stupid useless war. one out of three cars in Miami had American flags fluttering from them. Now you don't see any. It was a fad and it died out.
The Rebel flag will multiply, become a fad for a short time, and die out in pretty much the same way.

It will continue to linger, as Klan hoods and trappings have lingered. Every year it will be more irrelevant.


« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 11:04:52 AM by Xavier_Onassis »
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Blame the Flag!
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2015, 11:36:00 PM »
  It is bad to waste a crisis.

You are correct Plane.....it's such a freaking joke!

Walmart Refuses to Make Confederate Flag Cake,
No Problem with Making ISIS Cake


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7ePFollQQE
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

kimba1

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Re: Blame the Flag!
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2015, 11:40:00 PM »
Actually that makes sense to me. Nobody will recognize isis but everybody know about the flag and the reaction it potentially incur

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Blame the Flag!
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2015, 05:13:55 PM »
Actually that makes sense to me. Nobody will recognize isis but everybody know about the flag and the reaction it potentially incur

yes perfect sense...happily make the cake for ISIS and maybe Hitler?
but...no no no Confederate Flag cakes  ::)
after seeing many recent polls that show what morons a lot of people are
tons of people on the street including blacks would have no idea what the Confederate flag was either.

Major retailer brands banning the Confederate flag will not end sales of the flag, instead it will now put that money in the hands of smaller business entities that make it harder for the politically correct mafia to bully and silence free speech. The Confederate Flag is still going to be sold, but now they will be sold by independents across America.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

sirs

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Re: Blame the Flag!
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2015, 05:23:43 PM »
Here's the problem......no one has a right not to be offended.....period.  That's a foundation to the 1st amendment.  Xo is right, in that if local Governments wish to not fly the confderate flag on Government grounds, so be it.  That's not the American stars & stripe flag, its just a historical flag.  It doesn't represent or equate to slavery any more than any current southern plantation does, which is why its ludicrous to blame any actions on a flag.   
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

kimba1

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Re: Blame the Flag!
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2015, 05:48:28 PM »
I dont think of it as a symbol of slavery but as a symbol that americans has no right to tell immigrants what to do. Ex. English only

When the government can't even stop a symbol of a lost rebel facttion from being raise then it can't impose any requirement from immigrants. It can't exactly use a contxt of unity since that flag totally does not mean that in anyway.q

sirs

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Re: Blame the Flag!
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2015, 06:20:53 PM »
However Kimba, every country, has the absolute right to mandate that any immigrants learn their language, as a condition of chosing to live there.  It by no means implies you can't maintain your cultural identity and language, merely that as a prerequisate for living in a country, that you make the overt effort to lean their language. 

It's not the Government's function to try and apply any and every cultural standard and language in order for Government to function.  That's a grossly unfair added obligation to tax payers to try and supply any and all other forms of language materials.  Government has far more important functions, which is mandated by Government to perform, and payed for by the tax payers.  That doesn't prevent from any private company or business to do whatever they want to do, to better appease immigrants, but any country has an absolute right to mandate that you learn their language, as a requisate for staying long term
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Blame the Flag!
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2015, 06:43:02 PM »
It can't exactly use a contxt of unity since that flag totally does not mean that in anyway.q

Yes it absolutely does mean unity...unity in the sense if the Federal Govt over-reaches
and ignores the constitution then the words of the Declaration of Independence ring true:

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness".  Secession is a Right!

I guess we should get rid of the Stars and Stripes that fly today as well? Far more blacks have been brutalized under that flag, than the Confederate flag. If not, then the outcry isn't real. Look what has happened to blacks in this country since the civil war. Just in numbers the flag of today has a much more offensive history!

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987