Excusing Palestinian Terrorists

[Michael Tee]

DEBKAfile?s military sources disclose that Israel?s security cabinet approved Wednesday, March 5, a series of terrorist targets for early attacks as part of a sustained military offensive against escalated Palestinian attacks from Gaza on Israeli civilians.

Prime minister Ehud Olmert and defense minister Ehud Barak earlier obtained a quiet nod from US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice before she wound up her visit.

These targets are revealed here by DEBKAfile:

1. Chiefs and senior officers of Hamas? and Jihad Islami?s armed wings.

2. Their senior political officials in the Gaza strip, excluding prime minister Ismail Haniyeh, but including hard-line Mahmoud a-Zahar.

3. Hamas and Jihad institutions, including police stations.

These decisions were taken at the security cabinet?s first exhaustive review of Israel?s Gaza options.


Interesting stuff.  If the Israelis are serious about this, they must feel this is a good time for them to attack and a bad time for Hamas to BE attacked.  They are pretty fucking smart, especially after the ass-kicking they took in Lebanon in 2006 - - they really learn from their mistakes.

So I would think that Hamas would learn from ITS mistakes and not give the Israelis the fight that they are looking for.  I don't mean they should back down and stop firing rockets, because that would make them look like punks folding under pressure, but they should lie low and not take on the superior force of the IDF.  The rockets, though, would have to continue at all costs, and even at a greatly increased rate over what they are presently firing.

We'll see what happens.  The object here should be to bleed the invading army at least financially and gain a propaganda victory by giving them nothing to boast of in terms of final results.  Also more calls on the UN so the world can see that it is the U.S.A. that is blocking all attempts of the Security Council to resolve the situation and stem the loss of civilian life.  This can turn into yet another great propaganda coup for Hamas and the Palestinian people in the eyes of the world.

[sirs]

The rockets, though, would have to continue at all costs, and even at a greatly increased rate over what they are presently firing.

Speaks volumes, don't it

[Xavier_Onassis]

Firing rockets, particularly grossly incompetent rockets, at civilians does not seem to me to be likely to cause anyone to admire Hamas. Hamas does not seem to have done a better job of running Gaza than the PLO. The Gazans are basically trapped in a prison with little or no hope of improving their condition in the foreseeable future.

Religion and politics make a rather poisonous mixture. If the truth comes straight from God, there can be no compromise, and therefore no political movement at all.

I recognize that Gazans are in a hopeless situation and all they feel they can do is lob these stupid rockets, but there is no chance that they will ever come close to inflicting the same damage on Israel than Israel did on them.

Hamas needs to read more Gandhi and stop firing those dumb rockets. Some compromise has to be possible. Some moral suasion by people sympathetic to the Palestinian cause abroad has to be possible to cause Israel to change something: the number of hours at checkpoint crossings, the number of workers permitted in Israel, the amount of electricity.

Arafat was not very bright, but he was way brighter than Hamas seems to me.

[sirs]

Firing rockets at civilians does not seem to me to be likely to cause anyone to admire Hamas.  Hamas needs to read more Gandhi and stop firing those dumb rockets.  Some compromise has to be possible.  I recognize that Gazans are in a hopeless situation and all they feel they can do is lob these stupid rockets, but there is no chance that they will ever come close to inflicting the same damage on Israel than Israel did on them.

Your problem is 2 fold Xo. 
1) It's not the Palestinians/"Gazians" as you want to call them doing the lobbing.  It's Terrorists & Islamic militants, and those who don't care about life, especially Israeli life, doing the lobbing. 
2) They're not "lobbing" because they were screwed in life & have nothing better to do, they're lobbing because they want to inflict as much damage on Israel as possible, 1 rocket at a time, 1 bombed bus at a time, 1 bombed nightclub at a time, and with the right type of twisted propoganda, get the world to believe that they're lobbing rockets because they were screwed in life, and have nothing better to do

The Gazans are basically trapped in a prison with little or no hope of improving their condition in the foreseeable future. 

And the status quo will be perpetuated indefinately by enabling folks like Hamas to use the rockets at all costs, and even at a greatly increased rate over what they are presently firing

[Xavier_Onassis]

So they are not Palestinians or Gazans who are sending the rockets?

My point is that this rocketry is unlikely to cause any change in their status.


It is not my "problem" I have nothing to do with this.

[Michael Tee]

<<The very idea that Jews forced anyone off their land to create Israel is simply false. If you start with that premise, there's no sense continuing to discuss the problem. Which is of course why they (both sides) have the problem they have.>>

I've been following this debate for a long time and at this point, absolutely nothing that is said by either side can surprise me.  But if anything COULD amaze me, it would be statements like the above, that take obvious historical facts apparent to anyone with the slightest familiarity with the topic, and turn the reality that everyone knows is the truth - - and couldn't be anything else but the truth - - and just turn it around 180 degrees. 

An Israeli general publishes a book telling exactly how he and his men forced 70,000 Arabs off their land at gunpoint and transported them in trucks to the banks of the Jordan River and you have this opinion:  "The very idea that Jews forced anyone off their land to create Israel is simply false."  I mean the very idea that anyone has the balls to write such a bare-faced lie and present it to a forum of reasonably intelligent people is mind-boggling.  You have census figures that show huge increases in Jewish population roughly coincident in time with Hitler's rise to power, you have massacres such as Deir Yassin, and then you still have this clown - - "The very idea that Jews forced anyone off their land to create Israel is simply false. " 

I think part of the problem in attempting to have a sane and rational exchange of ideas with a die-hard Zionist is this:  they have no fucking shame.  They will lie to your face, not little lies, but Big Lies, lies that fly in the face of all known evidence and they will just flatly contradict - - against not only known facts, but common sense and logic as well - - the basic facts of the situation.  How can any discussion be possible with liars like this?  They aren't interested in exchanging ideas, they are interested only in one thing - - making Israel's case, admitting nothing and denying everything in order to do so.

Fuck that.  When I see a lie, I will just call it a lie.  I will present the evidence I have, as I have done here, and for guys like Rich, I just say:  Rich, believe whatever the fuck you like.  My responses to you aren't aimed at you, they are for anyone who reads your lying bullshit and might,  without my pointing out the truth and the facts behind that truth, actually be taken in by it.  You are not going to get away with your lies and bullshit because I won't let you.  I will be there with the facts every time you are there with your lies.  Every single fucking time.

[sirs]

So they are not Palestinians or Gazans who are sending the rockets?

Not in the sense it's just the citizenry.  They're terrorists....who are plausibly Palestinian.  But the inferrence should not be that they're the same.

My point is that this rocketry is unlikely to cause any change in their status.

Tell that to the mother who loses the life of a child hit by a rocket.  Tell that to the father that lost his family in a bus bombing.  Obviously they're not laser guided 2000lb bombs.  They ARE DESIGNED to inflict bodily injury, if not death.  And that is MY point

It is not my "problem" I have nothing to do with this.

Ummmm, ...........ok     

[Christians4LessGvt]

Zionism, the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland was attained. The term "Zionism" was coined in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum.

[Michael Tee]

<<Tell that to the mother who loses the life of a child hit by a rocket.  Tell that to the father that lost his family in a bus bombing.  Obviously they're not laser guided 2000lb bombs. >>

sirs obviously means the Israeli mother who loses the life of a child, the Israeli father who loses his family in a bombing.  It's a practical matter, I guess, because it wouldn't take very long to tell that to all the Israeli mothers and fathers who lost children in this conflict.  The fact is that there aren't very many of them, certainly not many in comparison to Palestinian families who have experienced similar losses in the same conflict.

sirs' focus on Israeli deaths (tragic, outrageous) and non-focus on Arab deaths (tough but really they brought it on themselves) is understandable when you consider how the Amerikkkan media deals with them.  If Americans Knew, an organization striving for even-handed media treatment of the conflict, has actually studied media reporting of the subject, and really, if the AP is typical of the Amerikkkan way of reporting the conflict, probably accounts for sirs' skewed view of things.

Their study of Amerikkkan media reporting of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is found here;
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/ap-report.html

The first thing you will notice is that the AP consistently (a) over-reports Israeli deaths in the conflict and (b) under-reports Palestinian deaths.

The next thing you will have to notice, if you were impressed by sirs' copious weeping of giant crocodile tears over the deaths of Israeli children, is that  (a) a great many more Palestinian children die in the conflict than Israeli children  (179 to 8 in 2004) and (b) that the AP over-reported Israeli child deaths in the conflict (113% of actual total in 2004) and under-reported Palestinian child deaths for the same period of time (an astonishing 15% only of the actual total.)  According to the site's math, the deaths of Israeli children are reported at a rate 7.5 times the rate of reporting of Palestinian child deaths.

Why the discrepancies?  This was not explained.  IMHO it could reflect either institutional bias by the Zionist-owned U.S. media or, as I suspect, vastly superior Israeli PR skills, ensuring that no Israeli child death goes unreported.  But it does provide some insight into why sirs', Rich and others are so intently focused on Israeli child casualties of the conflict - - for whatever reason, those are the casualties they are most likely to be confused over, due to serious blockages in the information pipeline.

The bottom line, however, is that sirs' ill-thought-out and overly-simplistic Zionist "tell-it-to-the-mother" argument is pure bullshit and in fact works very strongly in the opposite direction if the "mother" in the argument becomes, as she is much more statistically likely to be anyway, an Arab mother.  Someone ought to tell Rich and sirs and any other racists in this group that Arabs are people too.

[sirs]

Despite Tee's completely misdirected efforts at trying to paint what sirs focuses & doesn't focus on, for clarity of purpose and for those that aren't going to buy into Tee's misrepresentation of my position, it focuses on BOTH Israeli & Palestinian deaths.  And more importantly it focuses on the source (Arab/Muslim/Islamofascist agenda of driving Israel from the region) & not the symptoms (back and forth attacks from Islamic terrorists and counter reprisals from Israeli forces) 

It also focuses on the timeline of events, which contrary to the anti-semetic propoganda you'll get from Tee & like minds, DID have Israelis & Palestinians living amongst themselves, in peace.  Israel was NOT driving Palestinaisn from their lands, and never were.  However, events in the late 40's demonstrates that Israel's neighbors were not going to sit still and allow Israel to remain as is.  Israel was required to defend themselves, which unfortunately required them to take lands in DEFENSE of their very existance.  It was not taken in some form of racist South African like action, simply to drive Palestinians from "their lands", no matter how many times that lie is repeated.

Until the source of the conflict is dealt with, just as Xo has accurately referenced, there will be continued suffering and using of the Palestinians, by both Israel & Islamic militants, such as Hamas, who incidentally, care squat about the Palestinians, and their plight.  Instead, they use the Palestinians as PR fodder, and as human shields, then look forward to those idiots who advocate more rockets, bigger rockets, more death & destruction.

[Michael Tee]

<<Despite Tee's completely misdirected efforts at trying to paint what sirs focuses & doesn't focus on, for clarity of purpose and for those that aren't going to buy into Tee's misrepresentation of my position, it focuses on BOTH Israeli & Palestinian deaths. >>

No, it doesn't.  Your argument "tell it to the mother . . " etc. focused exclusively on an Israeli mother and an Israeli father.  But please continue to misrepresent what you just said in this very thread, as if all the rest of us were a bunch of fucking idiots too dumb to scroll back through this thread to see for ourselves what you really said.

<<And more importantly it focuses on the source (Arab/Muslim/Islamofascist agenda of driving Israel from the region) & not the symptoms (back and forth attacks from Islamic terrorists and counter reprisals from Israeli forces)>>

Ludicrous bullshit.  It obviously focuses on the immediate open wound of the 40-year military occupation of millions of Arabs and the theft of their land, homes and freedom of movement for the benefit of the stream of newly-arrived Jewish settlers being settled onto their lands as fast as possible.

<<It also focuses on the timeline of events, which contrary to the anti-semetic propoganda you'll get from Tee & like minds, DID have Israelis & Palestinians living amongst themselves, in peace.  >>

The timeline, as demonstrated clearly by the census figures which some Zionist idiot (probably Rich) brought into these discussions, not even realizing that they actually destroyed the Zionist bullshit story,  proves that Zionist settlement began in the last decades of the 19th century, when the Jews were less than 10% of the population of Palestine and began to take off when Hitler came to power in Germany.  The history shows that the Arabs reacted with great hostility to the obvious Jewish land grab, which was evident not only from Zionist literature but from the observable fact of Zionist settlement.

<<Israel was NOT driving Palestinaisn from their lands, and never were. >>

What fucking bullshit.  It's totally inconsistent with the record of massacres (including Deir Yassin) deliberately designed to panic the Arab residents into mass evacuation, the record of General Alon, who chronicles exactly how he and his men forcibly evicted about 70,000 Arabs from their homes at gunpoint, and common sense itself (how the hell could the Jews ever establish a state for themselves in the form of the original UN Partition Plan, honeycombed throughout with Arab towns and villages?)

<< However, events in the late 40's demonstrates that Israel's neighbors were not going to sit still and allow Israel to remain as is.  Israel was required to defend themselves, which unfortunately required them to take lands in DEFENSE of their very existance. >>

That explains the fighting off of the invading Arab national armies and the Arab Legion, a British-officered Jordanian fighting force.  It does NOT explain the refusal of the Jews to permit the Arabs who had fled their homes during or in advance of the combat operations to return to them when a cease-fire was established.

<< It was not taken in some form of racist South African like action, simply to drive Palestinians from "their lands", no matter how many times that lie is repeated.>>

That's NOT a lie, it is the obvious truth.  Your denial of the facts is just one more of your bullshit Zionist lies.  OF COURSE it was done to drive the Arabs from their lands.  What other motive could the Jews have had?  Pure racial hatred not even related to the land issue?  Don't be so fucking stupid.    Once the fighting had stopped and the cease-fire accomplished, there was no reason in the world, other than greed for land, to have prevented the Jews from permitting the Arabs to return to their homes.

<<Until the source of the conflict is dealt with, just as Xo has accurately referenced, there will be continued suffering and using of the Palestinians, by both Israel & Islamic militants, such as Hamas, who incidentally, care squat about the Palestinians . . . >>

Hamas, who put their lives on the line every day in the cause of the Palestinians, who are themselves Palestinians, "incidentally care squat about the Palestinians . . . "  Thank you for your brilliant psychoanalysis of the Hamas movement and political party.  And you know this because . . . ?

<<Instead, they use the Palestinians as PR fodder, and as human shields . . . >>

Schmuck, they are "the Palestinians."

<< . . . then look forward to those idiots who advocate more rockets, bigger rockets, more death & destruction.>>

Whereas, if they understood the situation in the very place where they were born and raised as well as sirs understands it, they would follow instead the wisdom of sirs, which counsels them to lay down their weapons, pull down their pants and bend over so that the Israelis can resume fucking them in the ass.

[Michael Tee]

<<Speaks volumes, don't it>>

Yeah, and you know what those volumes say?  Shoot back when your enemies shoot at you.  Shoot at the enemy who killed your brother.  Shoot at the enemy who occupies your land and your home.  Shoot at the enemy who tortured your children in jail.

[Rich]

>>Israel was required to defend themselves, which unfortunately required them to take lands in DEFENSE of their very existence.  It was not taken in some form of racist South African like action, simply to drive Palestinians from "their lands", no matter how many times that lie is repeated.<<

Absolutely correct.

I wonder, besides the United States and Israel, how many countries have ever given land back concerned in war to the countries that attacked it? I can't think of any, can you? Certainly not the much loved Soviet Union. The lies these useful idiots repeat are straight out the Islamic terrorist guide to genocide. It's incredible that they are so gullible as to believe these obvious lies. To what end you must ask, and how is it possible? I think it lies with the class envy that feeds their socialist hatred of what they see as the "Big Guy," Israel, oppressing the "little guy," the terrorists. Never mind hat the little guy started the war, and continues to fight it by the most dispicable means possible. They feed off the lies because it feeds their own anger. The little guy isn't interested in peace, he's interested in death, nothing more.

So I say, give it to him, in spades.

[Michael Tee]

<<I wonder, besides the United States and Israel, how many countries have ever given land back concerned in war to the countries that attacked it? I can't think of any, can you? Certainly not the much loved Soviet Union.>>

Listen and learn, moron.  Maybe one day you too can start speaking with your lips instead of out of your ass. 

The following countries, all members of the Axis Powers, participated in Hitler's invasion of Russia:  Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Austria (the incorporated into Germany,) Slovakia and Croatia.  Unfortunately for them, things didn't turn out the way their leader, Adolf Hitler, had planned.  After participating in the deaths of about 35 million Russians during the war, all of Hitler's Eastern European satellites were overrun by the Red Army.  Not one of them was absorbed into the Soviet Union.  All received back their independence with the exceptions of Croatia (re-absorbed into Yugoslavia) and Slovakia (re-absorbed into Czechoslovakia.)  Their land was their land - - the Soviet Union harboured no ambitions towards any of it.

[Rich]

>>all of Hitler's Eastern European satellites were overrun by the Red Army.  Not one of them was absorbed into the Soviet Union.<<

You truly are insane.