Excusing Palestinian Terrorists

[Amianthus]

After participating in the deaths of about 35 million Russians during the war, all of Hitler's Eastern European satellites were overrun by the Red Army.

27 million.

Not one of them was absorbed into the Soviet Union.  All received back their independence with the exceptions of Croatia (re-absorbed into Yugoslavia) and Slovakia (re-absorbed into Czechoslovakia.)  Their land was their land - - the Soviet Union harboured no ambitions towards any of it.

I notice you didn't mention Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania - all absorbed into the Soviet Union and not given their independence until 1991 - and some eastern portions of Poland, northern portions of East Prussia, and Transcarpathia - all absorbed into various Russian states.

[Christians4LessGvt]

Amianthus, Michael's error reminds me of Gerald Ford's devastating debate gaffe
declaring "there was no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe".

[Michael Tee]

<<I notice you didn't mention Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania - all absorbed into the Soviet Union and not given their independence until 1991 - and some eastern portions of Poland, northern portions of East Prussia, and Transcarpathia - all absorbed into various Russian states.>>

Both a you guys should follow the debate a little more carefully.  I wasn't trying to prove that the U.S.S.R. gave back every fucking inch to every fucking bunch of fascist war criminals.  I was -- as my post made perfectly clear - - responding to the idiotic remark of our crypto-fascist friend, and I quote (as indeed I quoted in the post you both commented on) :

<<I wonder, besides the United States and Israel, how many countries have ever given land back concerned in war to the countries that attacked it? I can't think of any, can you? Certainly not the much loved Soviet Union.>>

My point was adequately made by the examples I gave, most of which probably exceeded in both area and population the entire State of Israel and the West Bank.

CU4:  <<Amianthus, Michael's error (sic) reminds me of . . . blah blah blah>>

Yeah, right, CU4.  And YOUR error reminds ME of the idiocies of our moon-dust twins, Rich and sirs.

[Michael Tee]

<<27 million.>>

35 million.  Get with the times.  Apparently, the U.S.S.R. was underestimating its own dead to hide the magnitude of the disaster.  Researchers with access to previously sealed records upped the count.

[Michael Tee]

<<I notice you didn't mention Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania - all absorbed into the Soviet Union and not given their independence until 1991 - and some eastern portions of Poland, northern portions of East Prussia, and Transcarpathia - all absorbed into various Russian states.>>

Both a you guys should follow the debate a little more carefully.  I wasn't trying to prove that the U.S.S.R. gave back every fucking inch to every fucking bunch of fascist war criminals.  I was -- as my post made perfectly clear - - responding to the idiotic remark of our crypto-fascist friend, and I quote (as indeed I quoted in the post you both commented on) :

<<I wonder, besides the United States and Israel, how many countries have ever given land back concerned in war to the countries that attacked it? I can't think of any, can you? Certainly not the much loved Soviet Union.>>

My point was adequately made by the examples I gave, most of which probably exceeded in both area and population the entire State of Israel and the West Bank.

CU4:  <<Amianthus, Michael's error (sic) reminds me of . . . blah blah blah>>

Yeah, right, CU4.  And YOUR error reminds ME of the idiocies of our moon-dust twins, Rich and sirs.

[Christians4LessGvt]

"both a you guys should follow the debate a little more carefully.  I wasn't trying to prove that the U.S.S.R. gave back every fucking inch"

Then Michael why did you say the following?:

"Not one of them was absorbed into the Soviet Union.  All received back their independence with the exceptions of Croatia..."

You made an error dude. Just admit it and we move on. We all make errors. It doesn't mean you're a dumbass. Don't be so insecure.

[Amianthus]

35 million.  Get with the times.  Apparently, the U.S.S.R. was underestimating its own dead to hide the magnitude of the disaster.  Researchers with access to previously sealed records upped the count.

Source? (The 27 million is already a high end estimate - the "official" records of the time listed only about 17 million.)

[Michael Tee]

<<Then Michael why did you say the following?:

<<"Not one of them was absorbed into the Soviet Union.  All received back their independence with the exceptions of Croatia..."

<<You made an error dude. Just admit it and we move on. We all make errors. It doesn't mean you're a dumbass. Don't be so insecure.>>

Once again, 4, you reveal your total fucking ignorance of the subject matter, but that's OK - - we're all here to learn. 

Croatia, before the war, was a part of Yugoslavia.  During the war, it separated itself from Yugoslavia under the leadership of Ante Pavelic of the Ustashi party, a pro-Hitler group, which proceeded to massacre about 600,000 Serbs and about 60,000 Jews, before it was liberated by the Red Army.  The U.S.S.R. did not seize any Yugoslav territory for itself (which would have been a big problem due to the large and well-armed Communist guerrilla forces led by Marshall Tito, who prided himself on his independence from the Kremlin) but gave it all back to the Yugoslavs under Tito.  Croatia did not get to keep the independence that its fascist rulers had declared in WWII, so I couldn't say that it received back its independence.  But I still wanted to make the point that its land was NOT retained by the U.S.S.R., although conquered in war, but was given back to somebody else, Yugoslavia in this case.

Slovakia was in a similar situation.  After the Munich agreements, under a Nazi Roman Catholic priest, Father Joseph Tiso (hanged after the war, like Ante Pavelic, as a fascist war criminal) Slovakia declared itself iindependent from Czechoslovakia and allied itself with the Axis Powers.  Despite the connection to the Divine Power through the mediation of Pope Pius XII, Tiso and his local fascists didn't fare any better than Pavelic did, but at the end of the war, the U.S.S.R., which had overrun Slovakia, did not keep that land for itself either.  Again, I can't say that Slovakia got back its independence, but its land was handed over to Czechoslovakia and NOT kept by the U.S.S.R., once again proving my point AND with accuracy.

As someone around here once said, "You made an error dude. Just admit it and we move on. We all make errors. It doesn't mean you're a dumbass. Don't be so insecure."

[Christians4LessGvt]

Czechoslovakia and NOT kept by the U.S.S.R.

The Czechs were not within the Soviet sphere of influence in Post World War II? I thought in 1968 hundreds of thousands of Soviet troops invaded Poland because Poland was not minding their slave masters? Is that like a slavemaster giving his slave a few acres of land but telling the slave what he can and cant do 24 hours a day? Boy thats real generous "giving back" isn't it? Hey since you brag about the Russians giving back, how 'bout Israel follow your praise and give back some land but dictate what the new "owners" can do and can't do 24 hours a day and station 4 Israeli ground divisions there like the Soviets did in Czechoslovakia until 1987. Would that work Michael? Would you then boast about Israel "giving back" like you did in this thread about Russia?

[Michael Tee]

Legally, the Russians gave back the land.  If they had kept it, when communism fell, Hungary, Romania, etc. would still have been Russia.  As it was, legally given back land remained in the hands of the people.

Rich asked for examples of countries other than Israel and the U.S. that handed back to the inhabitants lands won in combat.  The U.S.S.R., which he specifically referred to as a country which did not hand back land, actually handed back large amounts.  Some, Yugoslavia for example, exercised a considerable degree of independence from Moscow.  Others did not.  All were governed by local communists, long-time Party members.

Your point seems to be, the U.S.S.R. still exercised considerable control over the lands it "gave back."  What is so fucking unusual about that?  The U.S. exercised considerable control over its neighbours in Central and South America, and it hadn't even been previously invaded by them.

When your ass is busted, you love to move the goalposts rather than admitting how busted you are.  At first, in response to Rich's challenge, the issue was whether the U.S.S.R. gave back land conquered in battle.  When examples were found of exactly that, you and Ami demanded why the U.S.S.R.  did not give back every inch.  That of course was never the issue.  When your objection was busted as phony bullshit, you changed the goal-posts again - - the issue was no longer whether the U.S.S.R. gave back lands it had conquered in battle, it now became, why did the U.S.S.R. retain so much control over its neighbours?  As if the U.S.S.R. was the only superpower to keep a tight lid on its neighbours.

You guys can play with this bullshit forever but I don't have the patience for it.  Let me just reiterate that you and Rich are full of shit, don't know what you are talking about, and think that moving the goal-posts is some kind of victory.  Well if it works for you, congratulations.  And now, if you'll excuse me . . .

[Christians4LessGvt]

Your point seems to be, the U.S.S.R. still exercised considerable control over the lands it "gave back."  What is so fucking unusual about that?  The U.S. exercised considerable control over its neighbours in Central and South America, and it hadn't even been previously invaded by them.

Yes but I didn't make the claim, you did, and you used a piss poor example.
Giving someone land back and at the same time making them a slave is not giving them shit!

Oh and by the way, are you gonna answer my question?
Would you consider Israel "giving back the land" if they retained divisions
of troops in the land they "give back" and basically keep total control like your
piss poor example of the Soviets doing it?

[Michael Tee]

<<The Czechs were not within the Soviet sphere of influence in Post World War II? I thought in 1968 hundreds of thousands of Soviet troops invaded Poland [I'm guessing you mean Czechoslovakia here] because Poland [Czechoslovakia] was not minding their slave masters? Is that like a slavemaster giving his slave a few acres of land but telling the slave what he can and cant do 24 hours a day? >>

A little basic math here indicates that the events of which you complain occurred twenty-three years after the U.S.S.R. turned Slovakia back to Czechoslovakia.

<<Boy thats real generous "giving back" isn't it? Hey since you brag about the Russians giving back, how 'bout Israel follow your praise and give back some land but dictate what the new "owners" can do and can't do 24 hours a day and station 4 Israeli ground divisions there like the Soviets did in Czechoslovakia until 1987.>>

Oh, like you mean like Israel "giving up" Gaza and then reinvading whenever the mood strikes and not waiting 23 years to do so?

<<Would that work Michael? >>

Works for the Israelis, eh 4?

<<Would you then boast about Israel "giving back" like you did in this thread about Russia?>>

Nah.  The israelis didn't wait 23 years to invade.  They didn't wait 23 minutes.

[Rich]

>>The Czechs were not within the Soviet sphere of influence in Post World War II?<<

CU4G,

Look, you're dealing with a Communist flat-earther here. The Soviets were very similar to Barack Hussien Obama in the respect that they summon pixy dust and lolly pops and sugar plum fairies to make life wonderful for all the little comrades on the Big Rock Candy Mountian.

[Christians4LessGvt]

Rich he beams about the Soviets supposedly "giving back" land but
if Israel did the exact same thing, "gave" back land but dictated
every move and kept 4 ground troop divisions there Michael
would be howling like hell. When the Soviets do it, hey
it's something to brag about, if Israel did the exact same
thing the Soviets did Israel would be demonized.

[Michael Tee]

<<Look, you're dealing with a Communist flat-earther here. The Soviets were very similar to Barack Hussien Obama in the respect that they summon pixy dust and lolly pops and sugar plum fairies to make life wonderful for all the little comrades on the Big Rock Candy Mountian.>>

Apparently, when it gets too tough for Rich to maintain his incredibly stupid ideas in debates with rational human beings, he just invents a whole new bunch of people to debate with in his strung-out and scrambled excuse for a brain - - flat-earthers, a Senator Hussein (why bother with his other names at all, to Rich the guy is Hussein, always was Hussein and always will be) who is "very similar" to the Soviets (hilarious!) and purveyors of pixie dust and sugar-plum fairies.  And lollipops. 

Wow.  You should have a very  interesting debate with all those folks, Rich.  Get back to us when you wake up and let us know who won.