Obama's Pastor: "God Damn America"

[Christians4LessGvt]

If you really want to understand it, I'll endeavor to explain it.

Thanks JS but I've had it "explained" many times.
And I don't buy it.

If you're just trying to use it in some way, then I'm not going to
because it is complicated and often misunderstood.

Yeah very "complicated" and not in Matthew.
I doubt Christ would make something so common so difficult and complicated.
Only men can do that.
Not buying it.

The bottom line is that yes, if a man or woman divorces
and remarries without an annulment then it is adultery

Respectfully "To each his/her own?

[_JS]

If you really want to understand it, I'll endeavor to explain it.

Thanks JS but I've had it "explained" many times.
And I don't buy it.

If you're just trying to use it in some way, then I'm not going to
because it is complicated and often misunderstood.

Yeah very "complicated" and not in Matthew.
I doubt Christ would make something so common so difficult and complicated.
Only men can do that.
Not buying it.

The bottom line is that yes, if a man or woman divorces
and remarries without an annulment then it is adultery

Respectfully "To each his/her own?

Your way is to completely ignore the words in Matthew. How is that an acceptable solution?

The Church is not built by man.

[Christians4LessGvt]

"Ah, well if Wikipedia says so..."

and

Websters Dictionary
denomination: a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/denomination

and

History.com
http://www.history.com/encyclopedia.do?articleId=227134


and

About.com:
"Here you will find a detailed profile of the Roman Catholic denomination along with a brief history, beliefs and practices of the Roman Catholic denomination.

http://christianity.about.com/od/romancatholicdenomination/Roman_Catholic_Denomination.htm

and

About.com:

The Roman Catholic Church denomination is the largest Christian group in the world today with more than a billion followers constituting about half of the world's Christian population.
http://christianity.about.com/od/denominations/p/catholicprofile.htm

and

ReligiousFacts.com
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/denominations.htm

[Christians4LessGvt]

"Your way is to completely ignore the words in Matthew"

And JS please tell me how in the world you would be able to know that?

It says "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left
hand know what your right hand is doing so that your giving
may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done
in secret, will reward you"

JS how do you know that I don't live the above quote more
completely than you do? How you can possibly judge others
without knowing them? Because I do not support "gvt charity" (oxymoron)
I am "ignoring" Matthew? Again that is your opinion, but it is not
the word of God. Thats all it can be JS because you are not God
and don't speak for God. The Bible speaks for the interpretation of
God we follow, and men follow the interpretation of that book
that they believe is true.

[_JS]

"Your way is to completely ignore the words in Matthew"

And JS please tell me how in the world you would be able to know that?

It says "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left
hand know what your right hand is doing so that your giving
may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done
in secret, will reward you"

JS how do you know that I don't live the above quote more
completely than you do? How you can possibly judge others
without knowing them? Because I do not support "gvt charity" (oxymoron)
I am "ignoring" Matthew? Again that is your opinion, but it is not
the word of God. Thats all it can be JS because you are not God
and don't speak for God. The Bible speaks for the interpretation of
God we follow, and men follow the interpretation of that book
that they believe is true.

I was speaking in regard to the issue of re-marrying.

With annulment there is no remarriage. There is only one legitimate marriage recognized by God. What you proposed is to ignore it altogether.

As for the passage you speak on, it is rather clear and had nothing to do with welfare. Christ was speaking primarily of the Pharisees, especially those who made a big deal of their charitable contributions (remember the story of the Pharisee and the tax collector praying at the temple?). I was once asked what I do for the poor on this board and I answered honestly, but I do not go around and make a big deal out of it. No one should and it is not a competition. Which is why it is odd when someone says, "Politician X gave $Y to charity last year!"

Saint Francis is perhaps the best model for Christ-like love for the poor and I'm rather sure that almost everyone falls short of his devotion.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I am going to agree that Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity. All Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholic. Despite the fact that Catholic means 'universal', the Roman Catholic Church is not even the Universal Church of all Catholics, hence the word Roman (as opposed to Syrian, Orthodox, Coptic and other types of Catholics or groups more Catholic than Protestant.

------------------------------------------------------------------
This "do not let your right hand know what your left hand is doing" is just plain weird.
Neither hand knows diddly, only your head knows, and it knows what both hands are doing or you are seriously ill or impaired.

According to Jesus, You should give all you own to the poor and follow Jesus, but when you give it to them, you should somehow give it to them in secret, without making a big deal about it. I don't know about you, but of someone hands me something in a low voice and says "here, take this", I am gonna think it is stolen, and never legally belonged to the donor in the first place. I probably would not take it. I know I did turn down a chance to buy a nice set of tools for $5 from some crackhead who obviously jacked them from the Auto Parts Store on the corner. I doubt that he gave them back.

--Excuse me, sir, I can't help noticing that you are poor. Come here my good fellow
--Yeah? 
--Here, take my worldly possessions. I won;t be needing them, because I am going to follow Jesus.
--OH THANK YOU! THANK YOU KIND SIR!!! GOD BLESS YOU!
---Shhhh! Keep it down! You will let my right hand know what my left hand is doing! I have to give you all this stuff in secret. Here, take my bed and mattress. Take my dinette set. Take my candleholders and fancy clothes and my extra pair of sandals.
---THANK YOU! GOD BLESS>>>
---Shhhh! Be quiet I tell you!



Apparently, although we must assume that Jesus fave disciple, Peter, gave all he owned to, well, someone, we do know that he owned a boat at one time, and there is no mention of who got Peter's boat, or if he even gave it to the poor. I find much of the NT rather, well, fishy, about stuff like this.

[Christians4LessGvt]

I was speaking in regard to the issue of re-marrying.
OK

With annulment there is no remarriage.

Says who?

There is only one legitimate marriage recognized by God.

Says who?
IMO God does not expect people to live in a fantasy land or in
an untenuous situation.

What you proposed is to ignore it altogether.

No it is to recognize reality.
To pretend the marriage never happened
when there are beautiful smiling children...gifts from God
from the marriage is in my mind ignoring reality.


As for the passage you speak on, it is rather clear
and had nothing to do with welfare.

Yes it does.
It speaks about charity and helping those in need.

Christ was speaking primarily of the Pharisees,

Oh then why is it in Matthew?
He is speaking to people today about giving.

I was once asked what I do for the poor on this board and I answered honestly, but I do not go around and make a big deal out of it. No one should and it is not a competition. Which is why it is odd when someone says, "Politician X gave $Y to charity last year!"

Agreed, but in my mind you appear to have an arrogant attitude that your way (socialism) is some
how the "moral high ground" and I do not accept that view.

Saint Francis is perhaps the best model for Christ-like love for the poor
and I'm rather sure that almost everyone falls short of his devotion.

I am sure he was a fine, fine  man, I am not sure he did more for mankind
than *Bill Gates*, but we all have our road to travel.

[Christians4LessGvt]

I find much of the NT rather, well, fishy, about stuff like this.

Can you trasnlate?
What is "NT"?

ok...sorry
i'm at work at trying to juggle
you find the new testament fishy?

[Amianthus]

Can you trasnlate?
What is "NT"?

New Testament.

[sirs]

I can't see where this pastor is being a racist. Nor can I see where he's dealing in falsehoods.

Lemme add to the growing list, now that more of these choice hyperbolic quotes are presenting themselves

"We (America) started the AIDS virus . . . We are only able to maintain our level of living by making sure that Third World people live in grinding poverty. . . ."

"We've got more black men in prison than there are in college.  Racism is alive and well. Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run.  No black man will ever be considered for president, no matter how hard you run Jesse [Jackson] and no black woman can ever be considered for anything outside what she can give with her body."

"America is still the No. 1 killer in the world. . . . We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns, and the training of professional killers . . . We bombed Cambodia, Iraq and Nicaragua, killing women and children while trying to get public opinion turned against Castro and Ghadhafi . . . We put [Nelson] Mandela in prison and supported apartheid the whole 27 years he was there. We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God."

"When [Obama's] enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli [to visit Moammar Khadafy] with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell."

"In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11. White America and the Western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just "disappeared," as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring Black concerns."

Has said that Zionism has an element of "white racism."

And let's not forget the Good Reverend's Black value system.  It's that Forest/Tree thing again, Js

[_JS]

With annulment there is no remarriage.

Says who?

The Church

There is only one legitimate marriage recognized by God.

Says who?

God.

IMO God does not expect people to live in a fantasy land or in an untenuous situation.

Following Jesus is not done to make you comfortable. It a calling that is difficult and can be very painful. Christ told you that (as did Paul).

What you proposed is to ignore it altogether.

No it is to recognize reality.
To pretend the marriage never happened
when there are beautiful smiling children...gifts from God
from the marriage is in my mind ignoring reality.

Annulment is not "pretending it never happened" and the children are not considered illegitimate. I thought you said that someone explained this to you.

What you want is convenient Christianity. It doesn't work that way. Christ did not call his disciples to have them reshape his ministry into something convenient for everyone. His call was very radical for the time, and is probably even more so today.

As for the passage you speak on, it is rather clear
and had nothing to do with welfare.

Yes it does.
It speaks about charity and helping those in need.

Welfare is determined by a government. It is a policy developed by the state in a similar way as prisons, roads, and a military. Welfare economics is an invention of the 20th century, long after the time of Christ.

Christ was speaking primarily of the Pharisees,

Oh then why is it Matthew?
He is speaking to people today about giving.

Certainly, we should all have a hand in helping the poor, but it doesn't stop with just giving.

I was once asked what I do for the poor on this board and I answered honestly, but I do not go around and make a big deal out of it. No one should and it is not a competition. Which is why it is odd when someone says, "Politician X gave $Y to charity last year!"

Agreed, but in my mind you appear to have an arrogant attitude that your way (socialism) is some
how the "moral high ground" and I do not accept that view.

I'm not sure what your view of me has to do with anything else in this discussion.

Saint Francis is perhaps the best model for Christ-like love for the poor
and I'm rather sure that almost everyone falls short of his devotion.

I am sure he was a fine, fine  man, I am not sure he did more for mankind
than *Bill Gates*, but we all have our road to travel.

As I said, it is not a competition.

[_JS]

I can't see where this pastor is being a racist. Nor can I see where he's dealing in falsehoods.

Lemme add to the growing list, now that more of these choice hyperbolic quotes are presenting themselves

"We (America) started the AIDS virus . . . We are only able to maintain our level of living by making sure that Third World people live in grinding poverty. . . ."

"We've got more black men in prison than there are in college.  Racism is alive and well. Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run.  No black man will ever be considered for president, no matter how hard you run Jesse [Jackson] and no black woman can ever be considered for anything outside what she can give with her body."

"America is still the No. 1 killer in the world. . . . We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns, and the training of professional killers . . . We bombed Cambodia, Iraq and Nicaragua, killing women and children while trying to get public opinion turned against Castro and Ghadhafi . . . We put [Nelson] Mandela in prison and supported apartheid the whole 27 years he was there. We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God."

"When [Obama's] enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli [to visit Moammar Khadafy] with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell."

"In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11. White America and the Western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just "disappeared," as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring Black concerns."

Has said that Zionism has an element of "white racism."

And let's not forget the Good Reverend's Black value system.  It's that Forest/Tree thing again, Js

Your forest/tree cliche is worth what you paid for it Sirs.

Explain to me what is racist about these quotes, other than this one:

When [Obama's] enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli [to visit Moammar Khadafy] with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell.

which does seem to have a racist tinge to it.

Tell me what is racist about the others, please.

[sirs]

Like I said Js....it's Forest/Trees.  You can pick out certain quotes and claim "There's no racism there", which might be technically accurate, to THOSE specifics.  When you take the totality of his comments, and add to that his "Black Value system", and segregatory mindset, you have a racist.  He just happens to be black

[_JS]

Like I said Js....it's Forest/Trees.  You can pick out certain quotes and claim "There's no racism there", which might be technically accurate, to THOSE specifics.  When you take the totality of his comments, and add to that his "Black Value system", and segregatory mindset, you have a racist.  He just happens to be black

There's no forest without trees.

Which statements are racist and why? You are calling the man a racist and posting quotes as proof. Surely you can explain why those quotes are evidence enough to support your allegation.

[_JS]

You can pick out certain quotes and claim "There's no racism there", which might be technically accurate, to THOSE specifics.

And by the way Sirs, you picked out the quotes and said there is racism there. Not me.

Please do not pin it back to me in the converse. The defense of your allegation is your burden, not mine.