Author Topic: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .  (Read 76990 times)

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_JS

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #165 on: October 24, 2008, 04:43:47 PM »
Yes Plane.

I follow what you're saying. I get that the moneychangers angered Christ. I don't recall disputing that. This is not an argument between pacifism and taking up arms.

I've yet to see you show where Christ "hates" anything or anyone. And I've yet to see where "hate the sin, love the sinner" is proven as anything but a modern Protestant construct used primarily to defend a position against homosexuals.

Does God show rage? Sure. I even saw a bumper sticker the other day that read "God is pro-life" and I thought about asking the owner if he recalled the story of the Israelites attack on Jericho.

Show me something (apparently I'm a Missourian today) that has Christ "hating." You can make Christ into some sort of warrior messiah (He wasn't...but there is some scattered evidence one could cobble together), but I've yet to see someone convincingly make Him into the antithesis of love.

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Plane

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #166 on: October 24, 2008, 04:54:42 PM »
Quote
As far as I know the only thing he is recorded to have killed was a tree...

Well, there was that herd of swine.

He is responsible for suicidal swine stampedeing into the sea?

Wouldn't the swine have had the choice to remain alive ?

sirs

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #167 on: October 24, 2008, 08:06:25 PM »
Perhaps Js can provide us the scriptures where Jesus advocates that we love the sin
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #168 on: October 24, 2008, 08:16:45 PM »
but I've yet to see someone convincingly make Him into the antithesis of love.



Why should anyone want to do that?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #169 on: October 24, 2008, 10:29:45 PM »
He is responsible for suicidal swine stampedeing into the sea?

Wouldn't the swine have had the choice to remain alive ?

================================================
The tale of the Gaderine Swine is as follows.

Jesus & Co. were strolling along when they came upon a madman. He was mad because he was possessed by demons. Jesus drove the demons out of the man into a herd of swine. The swine then became suicidal and ran into the Sea of Galilee and drowned.

There is no belief in the Bible that animals have souls or even the power to decide what they want to do. The Roman Catholic Church echoes this, and does not claim any type of free will for animals.

------------------
The story suggests several rather antique beliefs, to wit:
(1) madness is caused by demonic possession.
(2) demons can be moved, but not destroyed.
(3) demons can cause pigs to become suicidal.
(4) a deity possesses the power to cure madness by driving out demons.
(5) Someone in Galilee was raising pigs, which are considered unclean animals by Jews. Perhaps they were Roman pigs destined to become pork sausages.

I don't think to many people believe that madness is caused by demonic possession these days, even though many of the same people will claim that they believe that every word in the Bible is true. I tend to think that they just don;t think much about the implications of this story, which is presented as an actual occurrence, not a parable.



"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

_JS

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #170 on: October 27, 2008, 02:58:19 PM »
Perhaps Js can provide us the scriptures where Jesus advocates that we love the sin

No need. Unlike your view of "Hate the sin..." I never made the opposite claim.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

_JS

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #171 on: October 27, 2008, 02:59:46 PM »
but I've yet to see someone convincingly make Him into the antithesis of love.



Why should anyone want to do that?

Someone who believes in "hate the sin, love the sinner" would be thus inclined to show a foundation for this ethical rule. Jesus did not hate, therefore it is not a Christian principle.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

_JS

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #172 on: October 27, 2008, 03:03:03 PM »
He is responsible for suicidal swine stampedeing into the sea?

Wouldn't the swine have had the choice to remain alive ?

================================================
The tale of the Gaderine Swine is as follows.

Jesus & Co. were strolling along when they came upon a madman. He was mad because he was possessed by demons. Jesus drove the demons out of the man into a herd of swine. The swine then became suicidal and ran into the Sea of Galilee and drowned.

There is no belief in the Bible that animals have souls or even the power to decide what they want to do. The Roman Catholic Church echoes this, and does not claim any type of free will for animals.

------------------
The story suggests several rather antique beliefs, to wit:
(1) madness is caused by demonic possession.
(2) demons can be moved, but not destroyed.
(3) demons can cause pigs to become suicidal.
(4) a deity possesses the power to cure madness by driving out demons.
(5) Someone in Galilee was raising pigs, which are considered unclean animals by Jews. Perhaps they were Roman pigs destined to become pork sausages.

I don't think to many people believe that madness is caused by demonic possession these days, even though many of the same people will claim that they believe that every word in the Bible is true. I tend to think that they just don;t think much about the implications of this story, which is presented as an actual occurrence, not a parable.

Interesting point H.

I suppose that it could have been a Greek, non-Jewish farmer as well. Greeks and their culture had become more prevalent in Palestine by the New Testament time. Or, it could be that the swine are symbolic and purposefully used in this story as unclean animals.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #173 on: October 27, 2008, 04:12:11 PM »
There are those who maintain that the Philistines (who were the nucleus of today's modern Palestinians) arrived on boats from Mycenean Greece perhaps 1100 BCE. They are alleged to have come with their swine.

I suppose that today, now that most Palestinians are Muslims and not particularly known as seafaring people, this is a story that has not been passed down as much as other tales.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #174 on: October 27, 2008, 05:21:49 PM »
but I've yet to see someone convincingly make Him into the antithesis of love.



Why should anyone want to do that?

Someone who believes in "hate the sin, love the sinner" would be thus inclined to show a foundation for this ethical rule. Jesus did not hate, therefore it is not a Christian principle.

I wish that when I wrote , you would read.

Especially when you asked for something so specific and I complied so well with your request.

On what scripture do you possibly base the rediculous assertion that Jesus does not hate?

sirs

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #175 on: October 28, 2008, 06:31:10 PM »
Perhaps Js can provide us the scriptures where Jesus advocates that we love the sin

No need. Unlike your view of "Hate the sin..." I never made the opposite claim.

So your inference now is that Christ was.......ambivalent to sin??, no biggie??  That whole dying on the cross thing was for.......show??    :-\
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #176 on: October 28, 2008, 07:06:43 PM »
Perhaps Js can provide us the scriptures where Jesus advocates that we love the sin

No need. Unlike your view of "Hate the sin..." I never made the opposite claim.

So your inference now is that Christ was.......ambivalent to sin??, no biggie??  That whole dying on the cross thing was for.......show??    :-\

Sirs, I hesitate to comment...but consider this: you are suggesting that Christ's death at Golgotha was not an act of love, but actually an act of HATE. Have you considered that? Is that what you really believe?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Plane

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #177 on: October 28, 2008, 07:09:52 PM »
Perhaps Js can provide us the scriptures where Jesus advocates that we love the sin

No need. Unlike your view of "Hate the sin..." I never made the opposite claim.

So your inference now is that Christ was.......ambivalent to sin??, no biggie??  That whole dying on the cross thing was for.......show??    :-\

Sirs, I hesitate to comment...but consider this: you are suggesting that Christ's death at Golgotha was not an act of love, but actually an act of HATE. Have you considered that? Is that what you really believe?

An act of love for sinners , a chance for the sinner to seaparate himself from sin , the sin which God hates to damnation.

_JS

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #178 on: October 28, 2008, 07:20:46 PM »
Perhaps Js can provide us the scriptures where Jesus advocates that we love the sin

No need. Unlike your view of "Hate the sin..." I never made the opposite claim.

So your inference now is that Christ was.......ambivalent to sin??, no biggie??  That whole dying on the cross thing was for.......show??    :-\

Sirs, I hesitate to comment...but consider this: you are suggesting that Christ's death at Golgotha was not an act of love, but actually an act of HATE. Have you considered that? Is that what you really believe?

An act of love for sinners , a chance for the sinner to seaparate himself from sin , the sin which God hates to damnation.

Shown where? Where is it said that "Jesus hates..."? And yes Plane, I did read what you wrote.

In the Prodigal Son, for example, where is the hatred? Surely if "hate the sin, love the sinner" were a Christian principle then the father would have acted more as the older son had. Yet - he did not. God may be vengeful. He is certainly justice. Yet, hateful? I have not seen it.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Plane

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #179 on: October 28, 2008, 07:24:16 PM »
Perhaps Js can provide us the scriptures where Jesus advocates that we love the sin

No need. Unlike your view of "Hate the sin..." I never made the opposite claim.

So your inference now is that Christ was.......ambivalent to sin??, no biggie??  That whole dying on the cross thing was for.......show??    :-\

Sirs, I hesitate to comment...but consider this: you are suggesting that Christ's death at Golgotha was not an act of love, but actually an act of HATE. Have you considered that? Is that what you really believe?

An act of love for sinners , a chance for the sinner to seaparate himself from sin , the sin which God hates to damnation.

Shown where? Where is it said that "Jesus hates..."? And yes Plane, I did read what you wrote.

In the Prodigal Son, for example, where is the hatred? Surely if "hate the sin, love the sinner" were a Christian principle then the father would have acted more as the older son had. Yet - he did not. God may be vengeful. He is certainly justice. Yet, hateful? I have not seen it.

Did the man accept his prodigal son back along with his sons sin?

Or did the son leave the sin behind and return in repentance?

I didn't see the prodigal son being prodigal in his fathers presence , nor hisfather offering to allow him to be.

While he was lost his father mourned him , celebrateing his return.