Author Topic: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .  (Read 76987 times)

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_JS

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #180 on: October 28, 2008, 07:36:29 PM »
Did the father punish him for his sins?

A judge can dispense justice without hating that a criminal broke the law. For you and Sirs, why must God "hate" sin?

To me hate is a very strong emotion that goes well beyond anger or indignation.

Here is the only reference I find to "hate" in the scripture and interestingly it has nothing to do with sin:

Luke 14:26
Quote
If any one comes to me without hating his father 7 and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

The verse is very similar to:

Matthew 10:37
Quote
Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me

One wonders if the Greek translation of the Hebrew in the negative is not exaggerated by using the verb "to hate."
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Plane

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #181 on: October 28, 2008, 07:42:04 PM »
Did the father punish him for his sins?

A judge can dispense justice without hating that a criminal broke the law. For you and Sirs, why must God "hate" sin?

To me hate is a very strong emotion that goes well beyond anger or indignation.

Here is the only reference I find to "hate" in the scripture and interestingly it has nothing to do with sin:

Luke 14:26
Quote
If any one comes to me without hating his father 7 and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

The verse is very similar to:

Matthew 10:37
Quote
Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me

One wonders if the Greek translation of the Hebrew in the negative is not exaggerated by using the verb "to hate."

The prodigal sons punishment was self inflicted , mostly it was separation from his father.

What he wanted to do , hecould not do in the presence of his father , so away he went.

You say his father loved for him to be doing this?

Plane

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #182 on: October 28, 2008, 07:46:45 PM »
Proverbs 6...
16 There are six things the LORD hates,
       seven that are detestable to him:

 17 haughty eyes,
       a lying tongue,
       hands that shed innocent blood,

 18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
       feet that are quick to rush into evil,

 19 a false witness who pours out lies
       and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%206;&version=31;


Try useing a searchable bible , it takes a lot of the work out of it.

sirs

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #183 on: October 28, 2008, 08:46:57 PM »
Thanks Plane.  Kinda reinforces how even God turned from Jesus when he was up on the cross, bearing all the sins, of all the world, thru-out all of time.  Yet Js seems to imply we should just be cool with it
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #184 on: October 28, 2008, 08:49:06 PM »
Thanks Plane.  Kinda reinforces how even God turned from Jesus when he was up on the cross, bearing all the sins, of all the world, thru-out all of time.  Yet Js seems to imply we should just be cool with it

It is hard work for me , the idea that God loves the sinner and also loves the sin, is hard to understand well enough to argue with it.

sirs

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #185 on: October 28, 2008, 08:51:36 PM »
Sirs, I hesitate to comment...but consider this: you are suggesting that Christ's death at Golgotha was not an act of love, but actually an act of HATE. Have you considered that? Is that what you really believe?

It was an act of love that went beyond hate.  It was the ultimate Sacrafice, and THE only way any of us were going to heaven.  Point remains though, that sin wasn't something that Christ supported, embraced, or even just kicked back and didn't care about.  It was to be avoided, however possible.  You couldn't make it into God's Kingdom with it.  Simple as that.  and since it was largely impossible for any of us not to sin, in some way, Christ died for us, and absorbed that sin.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #186 on: October 28, 2008, 08:52:26 PM »
Thanks Plane.  Kinda reinforces how even God turned from Jesus when he was up on the cross, bearing all the sins, of all the world, thru-out all of time.  Yet Js seems to imply we should just be cool with it

It is hard work for me , the idea that God loves the sinner and also loves the sin, is hard to understand well enough to argue with it.

I concur
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #187 on: October 28, 2008, 08:54:13 PM »
One wonders if the Greek translation of the Hebrew in the negative is not exaggerated by using the verb "to hate."

-====================================
I am guessing that it is NOT a bad translation, because someone would have changed it in other translations, and they haven't done so, have they?
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #188 on: October 28, 2008, 08:55:01 PM »
Sirs, I hesitate to comment...but consider this: you are suggesting that Christ's death at Golgotha was not an act of love, but actually an act of HATE. Have you considered that? Is that what you really believe?

It was an act of love that went beyond hate.  It was the ultimate Sacrafice, and THE only way any of us were going to heaven.  Point remains though, that sin wasn't something that Christ supported, embraced, or even just kicked back and didn't care about.  It was to be avoided, however possible.  You couldn't make it into God's Kingdom with it.  Simple as that.  and since it was largely impossible for any of us not to sin, in some way, Christ died for us, and absorbed that sin.

Hmmmm...

If the sin can be God loved , what makes the Crucifixion necessary?

sirs

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #189 on: October 28, 2008, 09:00:21 PM »
Excellent question.  That's why my previous query.....was it just for "show"?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 09:19:36 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #190 on: October 28, 2008, 09:05:02 PM »

One wonders if the Greek translation of the Hebrew in the negative is not exaggerated by using the verb "to hate."

http://dkizer.blogspot.com/2007/06/questions-answers.html

http://askville.amazon.com/Hebrew-translation-Satan-closer-accuser-hinderer-ideas-combined-idiom/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=7115521

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_of_Jesus

Quote
Raca
Matthew 5:22

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Raca, or Raka, in the Aramaic of the Talmud means empty one, fool, empty head.

In Aramaic, it could be -------- or ------ which is also its form in Hebrew.


 Mammon
Main article: Mammon
Gospel of Matthew 6:24

No one can serve two masters: for either they will hate the one, and love the other; or else they will hold to the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 09:39:37 PM by Plane »

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #191 on: October 28, 2008, 09:34:10 PM »
Excellent question.  That's why my previous query.....was it just for "show"?


Every religion in that part of the world demanded some sort of sacrifice, meaning the death, generally by bleeding to death, of some animal: goat, sheep, bull, or chicken. The most impressive sacrifice woud be human, but Christianity one-upped everyone by sacrificing a Deity. Communion involves he parishioners, rather than the priests, eating the sacrificed entity.

Ritual cannibalism and deicide are pretty hard to beat.

To most of us in our modern age it just seems rather dumb to bleed a chicken to death to gain the favor of a God, and then, leave it for the priests' dinner. To people back then, it was expected. You can't be saved without some blood being spilled. See what your nasty sin made us have to do?
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #192 on: October 28, 2008, 09:40:53 PM »
Excellent question.  That's why my previous query.....was it just for "show"?


Every religion in that part of the world demanded some sort of sacrifice, meaning the death, generally by bleeding to death, of some animal: goat, sheep, bull, or chicken. The most impressive sacrifice woud be human, but Christianity one-upped everyone by sacrificing a Deity. Communion involves he parishioners, rather than the priests, eating the sacrificed entity.

Ritual cannibalism and deicide are pretty hard to beat.

To most of us in our modern age it just seems rather dumb to bleed a chicken to death to gain the favor of a God, and then, leave it for the priests' dinner. To people back then, it was expected. You can't be saved without some blood being spilled. See what your nasty sin made us have to do?



Leaves what it is "for" unanswered.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #193 on: October 28, 2008, 09:56:32 PM »
Leaves what it is "for" unanswered.


=============================
I think I made this pretty clear. It was "for" convincing the believers in other religions that Christianity was a superior religious product than traditional Judaism, Roman and Germanic and Greek god worship, Baal worship, Egyptian god worship, Mythraism, Zoroastrianism, Manicheaism and I suppose moon and rock worshipping religions of the sort that Mohammad replaced with Islam.

Wow! They killed their GOD and were saved, and now they are going to join him in Heaven!
Jeepers! In our religion, the priests kill a sheep and eat him in secret, but in theirs, they snack on God's Son!
 Lookit! Their god died as a common criminal and came back to life! And they say he's coming back again, soon!

I'd say that is an adequate answer.

If you think God and/or Jesus thought all this all up themselves, you'd have to ask them what their motives were.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .
« Reply #194 on: October 28, 2008, 10:07:37 PM »
Leaves what it is "for" unanswered.


=============================
I think I made this pretty clear. It was "for" convincing the believers in other religions that Christianity was a superior religious product than traditional Judaism, Roman and Germanic and Greek god worship, Baal worship, Egyptian god worship, Mythraism, Zoroastrianism, Manicheaism and I suppose moon and rock worshipping religions of the sort that Mohammad replaced with Islam.

Wow! They killed their GOD and were saved, and now they are going to join him in Heaven!
Jeepers! In our religion, the priests kill a sheep and eat him in secret, but in theirs, they snack on God's Son!
 Lookit! Their god died as a common criminal and came back to life! And they say he's coming back again, soon!

I'd say that is an adequate answer.

If you think God and/or Jesus thought all this all up themselves, you'd have to ask them what their motives were.


When it happened there was no established Christianity , nor for another generation was there any profit in it.