Author Topic: Obama throws Israel under the Bus  (Read 128057 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #270 on: May 27, 2011, 03:37:22 PM »
No one has ever provided adequate credibility to you in any post ever.

It is a waste of time to spoon-feed you.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #271 on: May 27, 2011, 03:43:37 PM »
Weak, albeit transparent deflection effort.  Its your waste of credibility in claiming something that apparently you can't back-up
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #272 on: May 27, 2011, 04:25:28 PM »
Deflection again, your favorite word.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #273 on: May 27, 2011, 04:30:18 PM »
Naaa....hypocrisy is.  Highlighting double standards and hypocrisy, is my favorite.  You can call calling out someone's perseverating deflection attempts more of a hobby or past-time.  As everyone, visitors including, who read these posts, have noted, you still have yet to back up your claim, and instead now perpetuating the deflection efforts, with still more efforts.  All the while your claim remains baseless and without context.

ergo, your credibility
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #274 on: May 27, 2011, 08:16:50 PM »
What should Israel off for them to remove the statement from their charter?

....since we're so hip on the land for the "promise of peace", I'll flip it.....for Hamas to remove from its charter, the death of Israel & every Jew, Israel will "promise to go back to 67borders"

Every Arab-Israeli negotiation contains a fundamental asymmetry: Israel gives up land, which is tangible; the Arabs make promises, which are ephemeral. The long-standing American solution has been to nonetheless urge Israel to take risks for peace while America balances things by giving assurances of U.S. support for Israel?s security and diplomatic needs.

It's on the basis of such solemn assurances that Israel undertook, for example, the Gaza withdrawal. In order to mitigate this risk, President George W. Bush gave a written commitment that America
- supported Israel absorbing major settlement blocs in any peace agreement,
- opposed any return to the 1967 lines
- and stood firm against the so-called Palestinian right of return to Israel.

For 2 1/2 years, the Obama administration has refused to recognize and reaffirm these assurances. Then last week in his State Department speech, President Obama definitively trashed them. He declared that the Arab-Israeli conflict should indeed be resolved along "the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps."

Nothing new here, said Obama three days later. "By definition, it means that the parties themselves 'Israelis and Palestinians' will negotiate a border that is different" from 1967.

It means nothing of the sort. "Mutually" means both parties have to agree. And if one side doesn't? Then, by definition, you're back to the 1967 lines.

Nor is this merely a theoretical proposition. Three times the Palestinians have been offered exactly that formula, 1967 plus swaps- at Camp David 2000,
at Taba 2001,
and the 2008 Olmert-Abbas negotiations.
Every time, the Palestinians said no and walked away.

And that remains their position today: The 1967 lines. Period. Indeed, in September the Palestinians are going to the United Nations to get the world to ratify precisely that, a Palestinian state on the '67 lines. No swaps.

Note how Obama has undermined Israel's negotiating position. He is demanding that Israel go into peace talks having already forfeited its claim to the territory won in the '67 war, its only bargaining chip. Remember: That '67 line runs right through Jerusalem. Thus the starting point of negotiations would be that the Western Wall and even Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter are Palestinian, alien territory for which Israel must now bargain.

The very idea that Judaism's holiest shrine is alien or that Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter is rightfully or historically or demographically Arab is an absurdity. And the idea that, in order to retain them, Israel has to give up parts of itself is a travesty.

Obama didn't just move the goal posts on borders. He also did so on the so-called right of return. Flooding Israel with millions of Arabs would destroy the world's only Jewish state while creating a 23rd Arab state and a second Palestinian state, not exactly what we mean when we speak of a "two-state solution."  That's why it has been the policy of the United States to adamantly oppose this "right."

Yet in his State Department speech, Obama refused to simply restate this position, and refused again in a supposedly corrective speech three days later. Instead, he told Israel it must negotiate the right of return with the Palestinians after having given every inch of territory. Bargaining with what, pray tell?

No matter. "The status quo is unsustainable," declared Obama, "and Israel too must act boldly to advance a lasting peace."

Israel too?  Exactly what bold steps for peace have the Palestinians taken? Israel made three radically conciliatory offers to establish a Palestinian state, withdrew from Gaza and has been trying to renew negotiations for more than two years. Meanwhile, the Gaza Palestinians have been firing rockets at Israeli towns and villages. And on the West Bank, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas turns down then-Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's offer, walks out of negotiations with Binyamin Netanyahu and now defies the United States by seeking not peace talks but instant statehood, without peace, without recognizing Israel , at the United Nations. And to make unmistakable this spurning of any peace process, Abbas agrees to join the openly genocidal Hamas in a unity government, which even Obama acknowledges makes negotiations impossible.

Obama's response to this relentless Palestinian intransigence? To reward it, by abandoning the Bush assurances, legitimizing the '67 borders and refusing to reaffirm America's rejection of the right of return.

The only remaining question is whether this perverse and ultimately self-defeating policy is born of genuine antipathy toward Israel or of the arrogance of a blundering amateur who refuses to see that he is undermining not just peace but the very possibility of negotiations.

As has been demonstrated, there'll be no peace
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 02:59:42 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #275 on: May 27, 2011, 10:40:47 PM »
What is happening here is that Obama does not want to be the ONLY signatory to a statement in the UN denying Palestinian statehood.

The French seem to be in favor of Palestinian statehood, and so are the French people.

The British people also favor it, but the Tories probably don't.

Angela Merkel is convinced that Netanyahu is a prime dickhead (Note: she is correct in this assertion).

Most Europeans are in favor a=od a two-state solution, and therefore favor Palestinian statehood.

The US might be able to afford to buy a vote in Tonga or Micronesia, but we really can't afford to bribe a real country, like, say, the Philippines.

The Palestinians deserve to have their own state, no matter what Israel says or does.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #276 on: May 28, 2011, 12:06:08 AM »
And here's the kicker, Israel also supports a 2 state arrangement.  Pity that the other state in question, does not
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #277 on: May 28, 2011, 02:18:53 AM »
Lets imagine that Palestine is established on the West Bank, borders are firm and independance is acheived.

Now what?

Will the US train their Army?  Better than letting Iraq get that contract, this should be in the treaty.


Will the US pay the cost of the Palestinian welfare state?  I imagine the new country electing socialists don't you? Whether they elect socialists or not US aid will be a major part of their budget, I bet we will be obligated by the peace treaty.

Will Isreal and Palistine be as good of neighbors as India and Packistan? Turkish Cyprus and Greek Cyprus? Balkin nations?Former Soviet Stans and Russia?   Meh....

Population is already dense , will Palestiinians farm and husband cattle on their small amount of farmland? Where are they getting water? If they drain the Jordan or deplete the water table they will not suffer alone.

I don't like the two state plans, the best you can hope to acheive is a miuneature of India and Packistan in their relationship , only with less ability to generate their own money and less water.

Henny

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #278 on: May 28, 2011, 02:59:00 AM »
They were doubtless killed in a variety of ways. You want a source, look it up for yourself.

You want credibility to your claim, you provide it yourself

I'll jump in here. I don't know about the statistic XO gave - I think it came from an opinion commentary I posted by an Israeli - but here is some info. I don't know if it's 11 to 1, but it sure is a whole heck of a lot to 1:

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/casualties.asp


Henny

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #279 on: May 28, 2011, 03:03:55 AM »
What should Israel off for them to remove the statement from their charter?

....since we're so hip on the land for the "promise of peace", I'll flip it.....for Hamas to remove from its charter, the death of Israel & every Jew, Israel will "promise to go back to 67borders"

Every Arab-Israeli negotiation contains a fundamental asymmetry: Israel gives up land, which is tangible; the Arabs make promises, which are ephemeral. The long-standing American solution has been to nonetheless urge Israel to take risks for peace while America balances things by giving assurances of U.S. support for Israel?s security and diplomatic needs.


I'm sorry, but that is incorrect. What you miss when you don't follow carefully enough is this (ever since the assassination of Rabin, anyway):

-- Israel starts a mass settlement of occupied territories.

-- Palestinians call them on it.

-- Then Israel withdraws from the land and tries to use their withdrawal from that land as the basis to re-start the peace negotiation.

-- In the meantime, the Israelis start settlements on another piece of land.

These are very good reasons why I continue to maintain that you are only seeing the picture generated by your media.

sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #280 on: May 28, 2011, 03:07:26 AM »
They were doubtless killed in a variety of ways. You want a source, look it up for yourself.

You want credibility to your claim, you provide it yourself

I'll jump in here. I don't know about the statistic XO gave - I think it came from an opinion commentary I posted by an Israeli - but here is some info. I don't know if it's 11 to 1, but it sure is a whole heck of a lot to 1:

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/casualties.asp

The claim, if I recall was Israeli KILLING Palestinians, as in targeted, as in UNPROVOKED, at the supposed rate of 11:1.  Not merely folks who have died, in particular, when in response to an act of war upon them.  I have no problem when a defending force kills more of those who tried to kill them, but failed at it.  Bt even produced the very accurate quote on war, the plan to kill more of them, then they of you.  And this is a war

But I applaud your effort to actually back up the claim, while Xo just waffled in the wind
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Henny

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #281 on: May 28, 2011, 03:23:08 AM »
They were doubtless killed in a variety of ways. You want a source, look it up for yourself.

You want credibility to your claim, you provide it yourself

I'll jump in here. I don't know about the statistic XO gave - I think it came from an opinion commentary I posted by an Israeli - but here is some info. I don't know if it's 11 to 1, but it sure is a whole heck of a lot to 1:

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/casualties.asp

The claim, if I recall was Israeli KILLING Palestinians, as in targeted, as in UNPROVOKED, at the supposed rate of 11:1.  Not merely folks who have died, in particular, when in response to an act of war upon them.  I have no problem when a defending force kills more of those who tried to kill them, but failed at it.  Bt even produced the very accurate quote on war, the plan to kill more of them, then they of you.  And this is a war

But I applaud your effort to actually back up the claim, while Xo just waffled in the wind

But unfortunately, he was right that you wouldn't accept any statistic.  :-[ 

Like I said when i first walked away from this thread - Arabs aren't human. Kill them all, no one cares.  :-X

sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #282 on: May 28, 2011, 03:23:23 AM »
What should Israel off for them to remove the statement from their charter?

....since we're so hip on the land for the "promise of peace", I'll flip it.....for Hamas to remove from its charter, the death of Israel & every Jew, Israel will "promise to go back to 67borders"

Every Arab-Israeli negotiation contains a fundamental asymmetry: Israel gives up land, which is tangible; the Arabs make promises, which are ephemeral. The long-standing American solution has been to nonetheless urge Israel to take risks for peace while America balances things by giving assurances of U.S. support for Israel?s security and diplomatic needs.


I'm sorry, but that is incorrect. What you miss when you don't follow carefully enough is this (ever since the assassination of Rabin, anyway):

-- Israel starts a mass settlement of occupied territories.


Nooooo, that is incomplete.  Israel starts a mass settlement of occupied territories, that it took during a war, in which those territories were being used to attack Israel from.  They had every right to settle those territories, following the war, in which Arab nations attempted to push Israel into the sea, from.

Now, we can go from there


-- Palestinians call them on it.

Irrelevent.....it's Israel's land.  It's like Mexico calling us on California


-- Then Israel withdraws from the land and tries to use their withdrawal from that land as the basis to restart the peace negotiation.

-- In the meantime, the Israelis start settlements on another piece of land.


Again, its Israel's land, though I agree it wasn't smart to start new settlements.  There should've been a freeze, but its still their land.  NOT STOLEN


These are very good reasons why I continue to maintain that you are only seeing the picture generated by your media.

Putting aside for the moment, the MSM bias that actually tries to reinforce your POV,  the rationalizations you are using to not even support a starting point for a peace to occur is a good reason why I continue to maintain that you are only seeing the picture generated by your predisposed dislike of Israel.  I respect the heck out of you Miss Henny, perhaps more than anyone here in the saloon.  I do think your predisposition of how evil Israel is supposed to be here, is tainting your judgement however
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #283 on: May 28, 2011, 03:40:43 AM »
The claim, if I recall was Israeli KILLING Palestinians, as in targeted, as in UNPROVOKED, at the supposed rate of 11:1.  Not merely folks who have died, in particular, when in response to an act of war upon them.  I have no problem when a defending force kills more of those who tried to kill them, but failed at it.  Bt even produced the very accurate quote on war, the plan to kill more of them, then they of you.  And this is a war

But I applaud your effort to actually back up the claim, while Xo just waffled in the wind


But unfortunately, he was right that you wouldn't accept any statistic:-[ 

Ok, how is my accepting the statistics you provided as not accepting them??    ???   You provided stats.  The context of which is the issue.  Does it demonstrate that Israel is effectively killing Palestinians?  Yea. 
Is it occurring in war?  Yea, that too. 
Is it occurring most frequently in response to attacks upon Israel?  Yea, looks like that too. 

How is that not accepting them??


Like I said when i first walked away from this thread - Arabs aren't human. Kill them all, no one cares.  :-X

Ok, now you're just talking crazy, since I'm not the one advocating nuclear destruction of everyone in the region, if everyone doesn't play nice-nice.  I actually want peace, but its been made clear to me now, from this thread, and from those on both sides of the issue, that it won't happen.  One side makes it clear that the Palestinians governing body of Hamas, can not be expected to adhere to any peace agreement, while the other side demonstrates too much irrational justification as to why Israel can't even be recognized and accepted in the region. 

For some, not necessarily yourself, the Israelis apparently just too evil, and their survival is just too much for some folks to bare.  No place to negotiate a "2 state" existence, from there
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BSB

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #284 on: May 28, 2011, 05:42:27 AM »
Of course killing more of them than they kill of you doesn't guarantee a victory. If you're in an infantry company, however, and you want a better chance at being alive when the war is over, it's a good philosophy to have though. I give it a thumbs up.

BSB