The value of suffering

[Xavier_Onassis]

OOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, YES it does!!!

[sirs]

Pound that table some more.  Try not to pass out while holding your breath

[Plane]

  Was it Arthur C Clark who observed that a sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguishable from magic?

    When I was very young the laser was invented , some time later I developed an understanding of how it works.

     First I needed to understand the basics of atomic theory and the behavior of electrons and photons, whithout this context I could not have started understanding lasers.

        Now if I needed to explain a laser rangefinder to an Afghan herdsman so he could aim the missile I wanted him to shoot , I might leave some details out, just telling him to press this switch then that one, then align this line with these dots on the screen with this knob.

        I bet I could get him to the point of practical utility of the rangefinder and arming and firing the missile without his really understanding what was going on.

           

[Xavier_Onassis]

I fail to see the point. There is a logical explanation for lasers. No one runs around claiming that it is futile to apply science to what might seem to be a miracle.

[Plane]

  That is not exactly what you are doing?


    Or more precisely the maker of that little film?


       He has some of his details right and some not , but more important he is claiming to understand how salvation works.


        That is more than anyone ought claim, the mechanism of salvation is explained in the Bible, but not in such detail as a blueprint and schematic of the wires.

         If Gods words to us had included more detail, it would have simply become impossible to understand at some level.

      We know now a lot more now than then about the causes of disease, but not everything . If God were to visit a doctor and tell him those last few secrets about Cancer perhaps he could be understood. But it would not be possible for God to tell every secret to any one of us , nor any secret we have had insufficient preparation of .

       What makes God want to tell us anything at all is one of the biggest mysteries.

[Xavier_Onassis]

We know now a lot more now than then about the causes of disease, but not everything . If God were to visit a doctor and tell him those last few secrets about Cancer perhaps he could be understood. But it would not be possible for God to tell every secret to any one of us , nor any secret we have had insufficient preparation of .

       What makes God want to tell us anything at all is one of the biggest mysteries.

You mean, considering that Yahweh, as mentioned in the Bible (take the Book of Job, for example) is such a jerk?

If God is omnipotent, that means that he can do ANYTHING, right?
And that means he could explain cancer so a doctor capable of devising a cure could understand it.

Because omnipotent is all powerful, and that excludes NOTHING.

[Plane]

You mean, considering that Yahweh, as mentioned in the Bible (take the Book of Job, for example) is such a jerk?

If God is omnipotent, that means that he can do ANYTHING, right?

Better than that , he IS doing Everything.

And that means he could explain cancer so a doctor capable of devising a cure could understand it.

Because omnipotent is all powerful, and that excludes NOTHING.

What makes you think he is not doing exactly that?

First bringing into being Doctors who can understand , then allowing them to find the clues.

Pretty recently the Human Genome was sequenced , since then we have deciphered a bit of it and discovered that DNA is not the only way that information is carried between parent and child and we have discovered that Virus and bacteria are in direct communication with our cells. So.. there is another layer of that onion to peel.


It is my opinion that God favors science, allows and encourages it, not because some overgrown monkey needs it to be a better monkey, but because he is in the process of building a transcendent creature.

I don't guess he is halfway done either somewhere far short of halfway, as evidence of this small measure of progress note the poo flinging happening in the political arena.  Two monkeys trying to make more poo stick to the other one.

That is how far we have come so far.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Better than that , he IS doing Everything.

How is that "better"?  If God is doing 'everything', then we have no free will, and we are nothing but meat puppets, and will always do only what God already knows we will do.

If we have  free will, then God cannot know what we will do. Maybe I am just an instrument sent to screw around with you and sirs for amusement.

And the whole universe is some sort of cruel hoax.

[Plane]

  I have never understood that attitude.

   Even though some pretty educated people hold it as an opinion.

      I consider it refuted and simply so.

        God will get what he wants in full measure. But whether you participate as his agent or his foil is a choice you can make.

         Remember Ester and her Uncle ?

            When Ester asked her uncle if she could avoid her task , her uncle told her that she could and God would use someone else  to save the people, but that her shirking would cost her .

               So Ester worked to undermine Hyman and wound up having a book of the Bible named for herself and a Jewish holiday commemorates the events .

                    We don't know anything about the guy that had a chance to do these things and said no , leaving Ester to do it.

                 

[Xavier_Onassis]

If God already knows what you will do, than that is what you will do. You can have no free will.
Either God is omniscient or you have free will. If God is omniscient you have no free will.
If you have free will, then God is not omniscient.

There are multiple instances in the Bible in which God is angered or amazed or surprised.
This would never happen if he were omniscient. You cannot be surprised after the 20th time you have seen Gilligan try to get off the island and fail.

God would have had to have decided from the very start, that he was going to create the entire ecosystem of Earth, populate it with people, and then at some point, deliberate DROWN them and start over with Noah & Co. And feel so sorry that he did it that he would promise not to drown them again.

[Plane]

If God already knows what you will do, than that is what you will do. You can have no free will.
Either God is omniscient or you have free will. If God is omniscient you have no free will.
If you have free will, then God is not omniscient.

No, this does not follow.

I would bet you have been in this position as a teacher.

Observe a student , who has little interest in the subject , is unwilling to work and does not understand the subject .

Perhaps you will be able to predict his rather low grade with a lot of certainty.

Why did you give him that low grade?  What is wrong with you?

You could see that low grade coming, so it is you that is responsible for it.

[sirs]

Bingo!

[Xavier_Onassis]

Perhaps you will be able to predict his rather low grade with a lot of certainty.

Why did you give him that low grade?  What is wrong with you?

You could see that low grade coming, so it is you that is responsible for it.

==========================================================
I passed out grade summaries every two weeks. Grades were calculated strictly by the numbers: grades on tests, homework and oral participation- which included attendance. I invited students to come to my office if they wished for advice. Some did, most of the failing students did not.

This is a crappy analogy, because I did not create my students. They were NOT a product of my design.  God, since he does EVERYTHING, according to you DID create all of us, knowing everything about us in every way from diaper to shroud.

There is no bingo, sirs, You are incapable of Bingo.

Again. if God knows what you will do before you do it, he is the one responsible for creating the mind that you use to make all your decisions, he made the calculator that will say that 1+1=3 and you will; be held accountable for it . If God is omniscient, you are a meat puppet. We are all meat puppets.

If there is a God, He is not the monstrosity the Bible claims, and he cannot be omniscient if we have free will.

AS I said, there are numerous scenes in the Bible in which God predicts the future erroneously, and others in which God seems unaware before an event how it will turn out.

You can find these online if you care to.

[sirs]

And once again, thanks for the validation of just how spot on Plane was.  I appreciate the validation of the bingo praise     

[Plane]

This is a crappy analogy, because I did not create my students. They were NOT a product of my design.  God, since he does EVERYTHING, according to you DID create all of us, knowing everything about us in every way from diaper to shroud.

God did create angels , my understanding may be flawed , but I think of them as creatures of tremendous power ,knowledge and intelligence.

But they are not creatures of freewill.

If he wanted a creature of free will might he not make the likes of us?


Or is an omnipotent God creating a creature of freewill a paradox like creating a rock too heavy for God to lift?