Author Topic: I guess the evidence is in.  (Read 39895 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2006, 08:08:37 PM »
<<Why do you accept the notion that President Bush spoke deceptively about the WMD in Iraq?>>

Well, basically, it's the people around Bush.  Bush himself is a mental pygmy who probably couldn't have found Iraq on a map, let alone figured out a need to invade it.  But he was influenced by people whom he depended on for knowledge and experience, many of whom had been associated with PNAC (Project for a New American Century,) a Zionist-influenced movement which had laid out a strategy for America to pursue after the fall of Communism in the U.S.S.R. and the advent of a unipolar world.

PNAC's plan had called for America to seize the oilfields of at least one Middle East country, and named Iraq as the top candidate.  During Clinton's administration, PNAC officers had actually presented Clinton with the PNAC plan for the invasion and lobbied intensively for its adoption.  Clinton was smart enough to show them the gate.  Common sense alone would tell you that what they lobbied Clinton for, they would similarly lobby Bush, with far greater chances of success.  Clinton, after all, was a Rhodes scholar with deep knowledge and experience of foreign policy, who can do his own thinking on the subject, whereas Bush is much more dependent on the counsel of his advisers, including the numerous PNAC heavyweights on board.

Published insider accounts attest to the fact that from the first weeks of the administration, Bush was looking for excuses to invade Iraq.  This would obviously be the result of PNAC lobbying.  What was lacking was the excuse.  Sept. 11 provided that excuse, or rather, it granted Bush a window of opportunity during which ANY critique of any aggressive action taken anywhere would be practically immune from public criticism, a window of opportunity when everyone would scramble to be seen rallying to the support of the administration and nobody would want to seem to oppose it.  Again, published insider reports attest to the fact that almost from the beginning, post-Sept. 11 planning was focused on the need to hit Iraq, still without any public justification agreed upon.

At some point, WMD became the reason of choice.  Suddenly we began to hear about the immediate threat posed by Iraq and its WMD.  Despite the absurdity of Iraq attacking the U.S.A. - - and it can never be stressed enough how absolutely absurd the idea was - - the administration and its stooges like Judith Miller of the New York Times began to flood the MSM with reports of the Iraqi "threat" - - this was a campaign.  The "President" began to receive warnings from various sources, all of which, as it turned out, could be traced back to Ahmed Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress, obviously a party with a vested interest in having America invade Iraq and overthrow its dictator.

If an idea makes no sense at all, and is completely at odds not only with common sense but with the previous history of this one dictator's past performance - - then the idea is obvious bullshit regardless of the source.  Regardless of the number of sources.  Here you had what was effectively a single-source idea from an interested party with an agenda, and we are expected to believe that the "President" - - a known liar, BTW, even before he became President - - sincerely believed this obviously outrageous bullshit which just happened - - conveniently - - to justify the agenda-driven program of his PNAC advisers.  Because it came from his own intelligence services.  Despite the fact that officers of those same intelligence services have told how they were pressured to abandon any conclusions which did not serve the PNAC goals and look only for evidence and conclusions that matched those goals.

Effectively, we could say that we have two choices - - believe the President, despite his earlier decisions to invade Iraq when WMD weren't even being advanced as the reason; despite the obvious absurdity of Iraq being able to threaten the U.S.; despite the evidence that someone was pressuring the intelligence services to come up with evidence of Iraqi "threat"; despite the single-source nature of all the WMD evidence - - somehow sincerely came upon the "evidence" of the threat and honestly believed in it.  This conclusion would appeal to me for one reason only - - because it would indicate monumental stupidity and incompetence on the part of George W. Bush.  But little as I think of Bush's brainpower, I have to say, it is impossible to believe that even he could be THAT stupid.  Even if he were, his advisers aren't and they wouldn't let him get away with it.

It is much easier to believe - - much more consistent with common sense and the real world - - to believe that Bush and his advisers knew this WMD business was pure bullshit, but believed that it provided enough of a fig-leaf, a pretence, for the invasion.  They would invade, instal a puppet government, and pull out, leaving the puppets in control.  At that point, with a "success" behind, minimal loss of American life and most if not all of the troops back home, nobody would give a shit if the WMD theory had been a lie or not.  THAT was their major miscalculation.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2006, 08:12:40 PM »
"If an idea makes no sense at all, and is completely at odds not only with common sense but with the previous history of this one dictator's past performance - - then the idea is obvious bullshit regardless of the source."


What about Saddams past history indicated that he would be averse to useing WMD or (and) supporting terrorism?


Why do you think it rediculous that a much smaller power might cause pain to the USA even if they have no hope of defeating us?

This seems to have happened several times in recent decades.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2006, 08:14:27 PM »
<<I do not see yet any indication that President Bush has intentionally decevied anybody , especially not on the subject of WMD.>>

I just answered that.  Read my last post.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2006, 08:17:22 PM »
<<I do not see yet any indication that President Bush has intentionally decevied anybody , especially not on the subject of WMD.>>

I just answered that.  Read my last post.


The one in which you say that it could not have been anyone as dumb as Bush himself ?

I read it , I still think you are skipping a step.

What makes you think that Bush intended to deceive anybody , especially about WMD?

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2006, 08:20:20 PM »
<<What about Saddams past history indicated that he would be averse to useing WMD or (and) supporting terrorism?>>

Nothing indicated that he would take on the U.S.  Common sense alone tells you it would be suicidal.  He was never suicidal.  Few leaders are.

What the history indicated was that before invading Kuwait, he asked for U.S. permission, and April Glaspie, then the U.S. ambassador, gave it to him.  When Bush revoked the permission, Saddam pulled his army back out of Kuwait, hoping to avoid war with the U.S.  Does that sound suicidal?  Does that sound like a guy who's not afraid of U.S. retaliation?


<<Why do you think it rediculous that a much smaller power might cause pain to the USA even if they have no hope of defeating us?>>

I have no idea what you mean.  "Cause pain?"  What the hell is that?  What are you talking about?  Bush never said "This guy's gonna cause pain."  That's not the lie.  Bush and his cabinet members were talking about WMD, they were talking mushroom clouds, not "causing pain."

<<This seems to have happened several times in recent decades.>>

Yeah?  The U.S. was attacked several times with WMD?  Maybe I slept through it.  Tell me about it.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2006, 08:24:07 PM »
<<I read it , I still think you are skipping a step.

<<What makes you think that Bush intended to deceive anybody , especially about WMD?>>

If you read my post of 7:08:37 and are still asking what makes me think Bush intended to deceive anybody about WMD, this discussion's over.  I can't make it any clearer than I did in that post.  Sorry.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2006, 08:25:21 PM »
<<What about Saddams past history indicated that he would be averse to useing WMD or (and) supporting terrorism?>>

Nothing indicated that he would take on the U.S.  Common sense alone tells you it would be suicidal.  He was never suicidal.  Few leaders are.


And yet this was never about Saddam taking on the U.S., mano a mano.  That would be ANOTHER LIE in the Bush lied us into war AMBE

This was ALWAYS about preventing his WMD from getting in the hands of terrorists who COULD use them in the U.S.  
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Mucho

  • Guest
Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2006, 08:46:16 PM »
<<What about Saddams past history indicated that he would be averse to useing WMD or (and) supporting terrorism?>>

Nothing indicated that he would take on the U.S.  Common sense alone tells you it would be suicidal.  He was never suicidal.  Few leaders are.


And yet this was never about Saddam taking on the U.S., mano a mano.  That would be ANOTHER LIE in the Bush lied us into war AMBE

This was ALWAYS about preventing his WMD from getting in the hands of terrorists who COULD use them in the U.S.  

If the Bushidiot really  wanted to keep WMD's out of terrorist hands he shoulda attacked someone that had them ,  not his Daddy's nemesis (and now his) , Iraq.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2006, 08:56:11 PM »
If the Bushidiot really  wanted to keep WMD's out of terrorist hands he shoulda attacked someone that had them ,  not his Daddy's nemesis (and now his) , Iraq.

[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

In the Axis of Evil Iraq was probly the easyest to tackle .

Easyest first makes sense to me.


I was surprised that WMD did not turn up on day two of the invasion, I still wonder what happened to them.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2006, 09:02:25 PM »
<<This was ALWAYS about preventing his WMD from getting in the hands of terrorists who COULD use them in the U.S.  >>

Thanks.  That's another one of Bush's lies.  It's even more  ludicrous than the others.  There's no way that Saddam could have transferred weapons to terrorists without leaving a calling card.  One way or another the U.S. would have to learn where the weapons came from and when they did, that would be the end of Saddam and the end of Iraq.  

The idea that Saddam would just hand over nuclear weapons to a bunch of terrorists (Osama Bin Laden is as good an example as any) and say, "Here ya go.  Nukuler weppinz.  Just don't tell anyone where ya got 'em from, fellas, I'm relying on your discretion."

I mean anybody who thinks there is a serious chance of Saddam Hussein or ANY world leader acting like that would have to be a total and complete moron.  
These conjectures get more and more foolish.  Foolish as it is to think of Saddam nuking the U.S., it's even more foolish to think of him giving away his own nukes to some terrorist group and trusting their discretion not to get him in any trouble.

I'm starting to see your real problem.  We all know that Bush said something which turned out not to be true.  So either Bush KNEW it wasn't true when he said it, making him a liar, or he really believed in it at the time, making him look, well, kind of . . . stupid.  The problem is, that what he needs to have honestly believed in order for him not to be a liar is so preposterous that it would really have required a monumental stupidity, so much so that in the end it is just an impossibility, because no matter how stupid Bush may be, compared to, say, Clinton, there is just NO WAY that he could be as stupid as he'd have to be in order to believe in the "threat" that Saddam Hussein posed to the United States of America.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2006, 09:19:36 PM »
I mean anybody who thinks there is a serious chance of Saddam Hussein or ANY world leader acting like that would have to be a total and complete moron.


[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

I am just that sort of moron .

You do not think that President Bush or President Husein could possibly be as moronic as me?


I remember the Crash at Lockerbie , an act of revenge that was done in anonominity , by a national Leader whose catspaws were in his direct employ.

I look over Saddams biography and am impressed more by his ruthlessness and wilingness to gamble than his prudence.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2006, 09:30:43 PM »
<<I remember the Crash at Lockerbie , an act of revenge that was done in anonominity , by a national Leader whose catspaws were in his direct employ.>>

You're equating the bombing of an airliner with a nuclear attack on a U.S. city?  Sorry, but you must be what you claim to be, then.

<<I look over Saddams biography and am impressed more by his ruthlessness and wilingness to gamble than his prudence.>>

Jesus.  Good thing you didn't look over Menachem Begin's.  When you find the part in his bio where he launches a nuclear attack on the U.S., get back to me.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2006, 09:34:52 PM »
<<I remember the Crash at Lockerbie , an act of revenge that was done in anonominity , by a national Leader whose catspaws were in his direct employ.>>

You're equating the bombing of an airliner with a nuclear attack on a U.S. city?  Sorry, but you must be what you claim to be, then.


[][][][][][][][][]


I am just too stupid to see what the diffrence is.

What is it?

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2006, 09:40:57 PM »
<<I am just too stupid to see what the diffrence is.

<<What is it?>>

Shooting down a civilian airliner is no big deal.  The U.S. shot down an Iranian civilian airliner, the Russians shot down a Korean airliner, the Israelis shot down a Libyan airliner, and the U.S. gives sanctuary to a terrorist who blew up a Cuban airliner.  It's not a good thing, but nobody goes to war over it - - it happens.

A lot of people seem to think that a nuclear attack upon a U.S. city would bring nuclear anihilation to whoever causes it.  Go figure.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2006, 11:47:31 PM »
<<I am just too stupid to see what the diffrence is.

<<What is it?>>

Shooting down a civilian airliner is no big deal.  The U.S. shot down an Iranian civilian airliner, the Russians shot down a Korean airliner, the Israelis shot down a Libyan airliner, and the U.S. gives sanctuary to a terrorist who blew up a Cuban airliner.  It's not a good thing, but nobody goes to war over it - - it happens.

A lot of people seem to think that a nuclear attack upon a U.S. city would bring nuclear anihilation to whoever causes it.  Go figure.


I think we are probly going to disagree entirely on this one.

The only diffrence is scale , and the scale of the retaliation should not be rediculous but it can be.