Author Topic: No War, No Holocaust?  (Read 17973 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2008, 12:30:38 PM »
"obvious facts" of course in this case being your perseverative OPINIONATED conclusions of Bush, MINUS any "actual facts".  Loved the "unrestrained war on the civilian population" deductive garbage.  Pricess is again validating the mutated thought process when it comes to Bush.  BDS squared
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2008, 12:41:36 PM »



<<"obvious facts" of course in this case being your perseverative OPINIONATED conclusions of Bush, MINUS any "actual facts". >>

Well, the obvious facts are summed up here - - you may claim that some are mere conclusions, but those conclusions were exhaustively argued in this newsgroup and for each conclusion, ample facts (some admittedly circumstantial) were produced, in short, there's nothing in this list of Bush-Hitler similarities that is fanciful, imaginary or invented.  There are very real and easily seen similarities which you may not wish (for obvious reasons) to recognize but which are nonetheless very real.

The similarities are:
 - readiness to engage in wars of unprovoked aggression based on pretexts that are pure fiction
 - readiness to use torture to extract information from enemies, or just as punishment
 - demonization of entire groups of human beings with assigned motivations that are patently absurd and ridiculous (the "evil" Jews plotting to take over the world, the "evil"  "militant" Muslims plotting to destroy "the West" because "they hate us for our freedoms")
 - unrestrained war on civilian populations to achieve stated geopolitical objectives
 - creation or exploitation of random terroristic attacks to justify a program of ever-increasing erosion of basic civil and human rights (the Reichstag Fire, the Sept. 11 attacks)
 - elevation of the executive branch over the other two branches (the "Fuhrer principle," the "Imperial Presidency")
 - unrestrained militarism, glorification of war and violence as the highest calling in the nation.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2008, 01:34:58 PM »
<<"obvious facts" of course in this case being your perseverative OPINIONATED conclusions of Bush, MINUS any "actual facts". >>

Well, the obvious facts are summed up here - - you may claim that some are mere conclusions, but those conclusions were exhaustively argued in this newsgroup and for each conclusion, ample facts (some admittedly circumstantial) were produced, in short, there's nothing in this list of Bush-Hitler similarities that is fanciful, imaginary or invented. 

The similarities (based on mass amount of BDS OPINION) are:
- readiness to engage in wars of unprovoked aggression based on pretexts that are pure fiction

"unprovoked aggression" and "fictional pretexts" would be the disqualifiers in that one


- readiness to use torture to extract information from enemies, or just as punishment

The implication of torture as supposedly equally applied by the SS of the past, and AlQeada of the present would be the mutation of that "conclusion"


- demonization of entire groups of human beings with assigned motivations that are patently absurd and ridiculous (the "evil" Jews plotting to take over the world, the "evil"  "militant" Muslims plotting to destroy "the West" because "they hate us for our freedoms")

Use of "entire group" when we're only speaking of Islamofascists & militant Islam, which is a mere fraction of the "entire group" of Muslims, would be the disqualifier, in that one


- unrestrained war on civilian populations to achieve stated geopolitical objectives

Now you're just letting the BDS take full root.  You do realize we have artillery shells?  You do realize we have multiple  MLRS?  You do realize we have our own WMD's?  Of course, but despite that none of them are emplyed, and the painstaking efforts we go to minimize civilian casualties, there you are, making moronoc statements as above as your supposed "conclusions"


- creation or exploitation of random terroristic attacks to justify a program of ever-increasing erosion of basic civil and human rights (the Reichstag Fire, the Sept. 11 attacks)

When you actually have some judicial decisions that back up that position, then you may have a leg to stand on


- elevation of the executive branch over the other two branches (the "Fuhrer principle," the "Imperial Presidency")

See, more of that twisted, mutated thought process.  We still have 3 branches, that check each other.  Your "imperial" opinion is pure AMBE


- unrestrained militarism, glorification of war and violence as the highest calling in the nation.

I hope you're really enjoying that stuff you must be smoking.  "Unrestrained militarism"...."Glorification of war"....Good gravy, sounds like I'm at some Jane Fonda pot party.  So much for the asanine notion that Bush is like Hitler
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

hnumpah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2483
  • You have another think coming. Use it.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2008, 02:06:50 PM »
Quote
Naaaa, just llike to remind the audience of the Left's perpetual idiocy, in this matter
\

Ah, yes, the legendary Sirs snark.

Can't see why anyone would nominate you for moderator.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2008, 03:16:23 PM »
Quote
Naaaa, just llike to remind the audience of the Left's perpetual idiocy, in this matter
\

Ah, yes, the legendary Sirs snark.

So, in H's world, posing a truthful observation, as I see it, by members of the far left, is a "snark".  Interesting


Can't see why anyone would nominate you for moderator.

Thanks for the pleasantries.  You try and have a good day, H
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2008, 03:45:45 PM »
<<"unprovoked aggression" and "fictional pretexts" would be the disqualifiers in that one>>

Well, still waiting to hear what the "provocation" was.  (Hint: fear that a country someday, somehow, might acquire weapons that could harm you does NOT constitute provocation.)

<<The implication of torture as supposedly equally applied by the SS of the past, and AlQeada of the present would be the mutation of that "conclusion">>

I didn't say that Bush was the only leader in world history to use torture.  He's just the first American to do so.  His use of the tactic is one of the many things that make him similar to Hitler.

<<Use of "entire group" when we're only speaking of Islamofascists & militant Islam, which is a mere fraction of the "entire group" of Muslims, would be the disqualifier, in that one>>

Hilarious.  So he's narrowed it down to "militant Islamists" instead of all Muslims.  The principle still works - - single out a large group of "others," give them a sinister bunch of motives and demonize.  Anyone who's militant and Islamic - - say anyone violently opposed to the Jewish occupation of the West Bank - - is demonized and given motives ("Caliphate" "destroy the West" "hatred of our freedoms") that fit nicely into Hitler's motives ascribed to the Jews ("world domination" "pollution of the Aryan bloodstream" "gold")

<<You do realize we have artillery shells?  You do realize we have multiple  MLRS?  You do realize we have our own WMD's?  Of course, but despite that none of them are emplyed, and the painstaking efforts we go to minimize civilian casualties, there you are, making moronoc statements as above as your supposed "conclusions">>

Even more hilarious.  Your "painstaking efforts" have so far resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians and the toll is rising daily.  If those are "painstaking efforts" to avoid civilian casualties, I'd hate to be around when you decide to shoot at random.

<<When you actually have some judicial decisions that back up that position [that the Bush administration took advantage of the 9-11 attacks the same way that Hitler took advantage of the Reichstag Fire], then you may have a leg to stand on>>

Yeah, I'll wait till someone uses the courts to decide whether or not Bush was like Hitler.  Then we'll have a judicial decision one way or the other.  Till then nobody is allowed to find historical parallels for the actions of the Bush administration.  Except anyone who wants to compare Bush not to Hitler but to Winston Churchill.  For THAT comparison, you don't need any judicial decision.



-<<[elevation of the executive branch over the other two branches (the "Fuhrer principle," the "Imperial Presidency" is just more of that twisted, mutated thought process.  We still have 3 branches, that check each other.  Your "imperial" opinion is pure AMBE>>

Actually "Imperial Presidency" is just shorthand for Congressional abdication of Constitutional responsibility, and Presidential assumption thereof, as for example, Congress declining to use the war-making powers given to it by the Constitution and delegating instead to the President.  Attaching "signing statements" to duly and properly enacted laws, in effect proclaiming that the President might legitimately decide not to enforce them.  And deciding for himself what is or is not torture, thus bypassing the courts and the legislature.  All well-documented AND all paralleled by Hitler's prior but similar actions.

<<unrestrained militarism, glorification of war and violence as the highest calling in the nation.>>

As in delivering his "Mission Accomplished" speech while prancing around in a flight suit on the deck of a carrier.  As in delivering most of his speeches in front of friendly military audiences rather than unfriendly citizens.

<<I hope you're really enjoying that stuff you must be smoking.  "Unrestrained militarism"...."Glorification of war"....Good gravy, sounds like I'm at some Jane Fonda pot party. >>

It must be some challenge, sirs, every time you hear some truth that you can't bear to listen to, to find some new way of denigrating it without taking on the impossible task of proving it wrong.

<< So much for the asanine notion that Bush is like Hitler>>

The only asinine notion I've seen around here is the absurd denial of the obvious truth that the two have much in common.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2008, 05:54:33 PM »
Late 1940 was a full year before the mass deportations from the Polish ghettos to Treblinka and Sobibor began. Churchill had ordered the indiscriminate bombing of German cities and civilians before the Nazis had begun to execute the Final Solution.



Did Bombs fall first on Berlin or on London?

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2008, 06:09:26 PM »
<<Did Bombs fall first on Berlin or on London?>>

Guernica.  Far as I'm aware, the first Nazi terror-bombing of civilian targets occurred in the town of Guernica during the Spanish Civil War.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2008, 06:24:45 PM »
<<Did Bombs fall first on Berlin or on London?>>

Guernica.  Far as I'm aware, the first Nazi terror-bombing of civilian targets occurred in the town of Guernica during the Spanish Civil War.

I think you are right , but Chirchill probly was not involved in that decision.

I beleive that Berlin was deliberately bombed the next day after London was.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2008, 07:25:35 PM »
There was also the earlier Nazi terror-bombing of Rotterdam that killed about 900 Dutch civilians.  By the time the British got around to bombing Berlin, the Nazis had committed enough atrocities to justify the RAF turning the whole fucking country into a parking lot, and throwing in some good firestorms for a bonus.

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2008, 07:29:14 PM »
There was also the earlier Nazi terror-bombing of Rotterdam that killed about 900 Dutch civilians.  By the time the British got around to bombing Berlin, the Nazis had committed enough atrocities to justify the RAF turning the whole fucking country into a parking lot, and throwing in some good firestorms for a bonus.

Why would Nazi atrocities justify bombing German citizens?

By 1940 the British Empire had committed plenty of their own atrocities, but I don't think it would justify mass killing of British citizens anymore than Saddam's atrocities justify mass killing of Iraqis.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2008, 09:50:02 PM »
Nothing really justifies atrocities.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

hnumpah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2483
  • You have another think coming. Use it.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2008, 12:36:26 AM »
Quote
So, in H's world, posing a truthful observation, as I see it, by members of the far left, is a "snark".  Interesting

When it has no relation to anything in the thread and is done simply to provoke others, yes.

And I had a lovely day. Yourself?
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2008, 01:18:15 AM »
There was also the earlier Nazi terror-bombing of Rotterdam that killed about 900 Dutch civilians.  By the time the British got around to bombing Berlin, the Nazis had committed enough atrocities to justify the RAF turning the whole fucking country into a parking lot, and throwing in some good firestorms for a bonus.

For a little while there was a tacit mutual restraint, and Germany and England bombed each others military targets , then the bombing of Berlin followed the bombing of London by a day.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2008, 01:30:33 AM »
<<Why would Nazi atrocities justify bombing German citizens?>>

Because lots of them were also Nazis.  Even the kids.   And because the crimes of the Nazis are primarily crimes against women and children, so you get back at the perpetrators by killing their women and children.  Let the bastards feel something of what it's like to be on the receiving end, to have their own women and children suffer what they were so happy to inflict on others.  Otherwise the killing of the truly innocent women and children goes unavenged.  THAT can't be.  Rough justice is better than no justice at all.

<<By 1940 the British Empire had committed plenty of their own atrocities, . . .>>

They acted badly on very rare occasions.  They never intended to exterminate an entire race of people.