Author Topic: California judge says no to homeschooling  (Read 111258 times)

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Universe Prince

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #60 on: March 09, 2008, 07:25:42 AM »

As opposed to the unbiased view of the world public school offers?

Explain this, please.


Do you think public school teachers have no bias? Do you think textbooks don't have bias? I remember being taught in school that Abraham Lincoln was this great man who was so burdened with his task to free the slaves. Turns out he was not all that concerned with freeing anybody, and he did things like suspend habeas corpus and throw dissenters, not excluding members of the press, into jail. I was taught in school that Franklin Roosevelt saved the country from the Great Depression and helped the country during the time of war. Turns out that Roosevelt's policies were what made the Depression drag on for more than a decade and possibly, just possibly, the man worked to manipulate events to get the U.S. into war. So the cynic in me thinks your concern about bias is entirely one sided and possibly myopic.


Yes, we need to have consistent and quality teaching methods. Why not?


Clever, but not so fast. Consistent and quality teaching methods are necessarily the same as approved methods.


Tests reflect just a part of a child's knowledge.


Of course, but, that isn't the question. The question is: just exactly how do you expect to find out what a child has learned without a test?


There is so much more to education than testing.
There is observation of the child's key abilities, interests, developmental stages of learning.


Yeah. Are you suggesting parents are somehow unable pay attention to these things? Seems to me parents are well suited and situated to pay attention to these things.


Once again, what is the goal? To have aced a test, or to have made the grade through hard work, quality do-overs in life through practice after failure, and good old determination.....which are important pieces of the puzzle for a child whether that child has passed or not passed a test(s).


I thought the goal was to educate the children. Anyway, all these hard life lessons you're talking about, what prevents a child from acquiring that through homeschooling? So far you haven't mentioned anything that cannot be achieved by homeschooling.


A+ kids...can fail in life...as D- kids can change a society.


Indeed. D- children generally according to public school standards, which indicates to me that the public schools were not meeting the educational needs of those people as children. So maybe public school isn't always the best answer?


Social skills are important, too.
Home schooling fail to measure up in that way, imo...


Opponents of homeschooling often say that, but I have yet to see any evidence that all or even most homeschooled children grow up without social skills.


I am saying what if the parent teaches a child something like fundamental hatred of another person based on faith.


Seems to me that goes on even without homeschooling. As best I can tell, your objection amounts to asking what if something bad happens. Bad things happen. Some people are racists. That some people are racists is a really bad reason to object to all homeschooling. Some public school teachers have had sexual relations with students. Bad things happen, but I notice public schools are still operating.


Directly being taught something is based on one's parental views...does not always give the child a chance to think for themselves.....


You mean they might be taught something they later find out isn't so? Like my previous example of Lincoln and FDR? I'm just to cynical about this to accept your version of public school as some great institution of critical thinking. I just don't see the evidence. I'm glad you're concerned about it, but again, there is no reason to assume that homeschooling is devoid of critical thinking lessons. Indeed, the existence of homeschooling is a result of people daring to question the public school system and to find what they believe is a better way. Thinking outside the box, as the saying goes.


The genetic code is too close for a parent to objectively teach a child.


Ah. Now we come to the quick. The parent is not qualified to teach because the parent is the parent. Forgive my language, but that is just poppycock.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Universe Prince

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #61 on: March 09, 2008, 07:35:23 AM »

So, now are we to advocate home schooling all of our children based on her success story?



explain what is the perfect system for children


No one is arguing that we do away with public schools. But sometimes public schooling simply isn't the best answer for a child's education.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2008, 12:52:57 PM »
Of course, but, that isn't the question. The question is: just exactly how do you expect to find out what a child has learned without a test?

Yep....You're right. I really didn't mean to imply that tests are not viable ways to find data and drive instruction based on the data.

and...yes Poppycock on that genetic issue....I just threw that one out there....Now that I have "banked" my hour of sleep....
I'll try to counter .

I am looking into it now...and I might have to conceded on BT's original point. But, I do have some thoughts on this issue.

BRB
« Last Edit: March 09, 2008, 01:00:00 PM by Cynthia »

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2008, 02:09:47 PM »
Well in real life the law is never called on to deal with "average" children - - it deals with real kids with real names and decides if Johnny is getting the education he deserves or not.

Ok, so I am skipping a spring hour and re reading the entire thread...now that I have time and energy. I was just too late for me last night....so I will begin again..

First off.....I am in agreement with MT on some points, here.

Where are the "average" or even "below average" child's educational needs being met in all of this? Those parents who can afford to be educated or trained and certified to teach in the comfort of home by  a reasonably or very well educated parent, are bound to succeed. But, does that help the nation of children as a whole? PErhaps a few, sure.

If I had the luxury of teaching one or two children at a time, of course test scores would rise through the roof!!( god, I can only wish for such a thing, I could bring back the full load of content and curriculum that is being ripped out of the ps system these days). I sometimes feel the desire to simply jump the PS ship for such luxuries, but I don't and can't let those kids down. I see their faces every day. Perhaps that's why I am in this debate for the long haul.

 How can we provide decent home schooling for THOSE kids across this nation?

Sure, I realize that the scores are higher overall, after reading BT's links and a few of my own here this morning. . I'll give you that BT.

But, I still feel that tests are not the end all of how to evaluate a child. I feel that we need to put effort and money and support back into the Public School system instead of running home to mama to learn.
My goodness, every home would become a one dwelling school house?
When I read MT's post, I was imagining the entire nation supporting the PS system. What a dream that would be. Why kick a "horse" when he's down. Why are people so quick to prove that the school systems don't make the grade.....in order to prove a political point and win and argument? Sure, your original argument was about the test scores. Period. I see the difference, but I also see that the comparison isn't fair nor is it the answer to a very critical problem in this country.
There are little lives that deserve better.

I work in a public school in an inner city type environment. I want very much to see success in the PS system. Yes, I do agree that there have to be choices for parents, and I am not against competition, but that's a fine line to cross at this stage of the game. Who wouldn't want their child to receive the best that's out there? I strongly believe that a lot of unrecognized teachers are well trained and offer the best for children in many schools in this nation...but, the system is weak, and a bit broken, no doubt about it. I see it daily. So, instead of abandoning the system in favor of going home to learn...why not put effort into fixing the problem?

During the past three weeks our kids have been  taking the Standardized tests.(I teach 3rd grade).
The kids are not doing well. I'll be honest.  They are struggling. WHY? Because we are in the midst of throwing out the baby with the bathwater in this nation. We have been told to teach apples and test oranges. That's not the way it used to be. In some ways the schools of the past were fine..never broken compared to today.
And, yes, I do believe it to be the result of punitive reactionary responses from the government agains teachers and systems ....in order to find a quick fix path to success.
 There is really very little  support or training to make this "act" a viable solution. There is no effort to reduce class sizes....
 
 Who's running this ship? Not educators for the most part as XO has stated.  I believe that to be the reason  we are in this mess.....But, be sure to apply pressure instead of support for the teachers in order to bring those scores UP UP UP But, pressure points break, and in the end the child's world is affected and I AGREE HERE WITH MT....they are abused, somewhat.





These are only a few quotes from articles I picked up this morning while googling the issue but I let the issue rest here.

Standardized tests are just one measure of how your child is doing at school. They are not perfect measures of what children can or cannot do. Standardized tests are designed to give a common measure of students' performance. They do help parents, teachers, and schools see how an individual student performs in comparison to other students in the same class, the school, the state, or the nation.
Some children become skilled test takers much faster than others do. Much of the secret lies in knowing how to prepare for tests. It is very important to understand that standardized tests are just one measure of how your child is doing at school
Achievement tests cannot possibly measure everything that students learn and are not a perfect measure of what individual students can or cannot do




Parents: Do Your Homework
Standardized testing -- two simple words that often strike fear for children, teachers, and parents alike. Many states use proficiency testing as a way to assess children and evaluate teachers. In some states, a low score on a proficiency exam is grounds for holding your child back. Whatever the policies are in your state, your job is to prepare your young learner for the testing challenge.


http://school.familyeducation.com/educational-testing/teaching-methods/37502.html?detoured=1


Of course it's the parent's job to help. Of course it's the parents job to prepare. TO fix the problem is to improve the state and the issue of aligning of tests and curriculum.
I feel we will see possibilities for improvement.
We are scattering to the winds currently. I say don't kick us when we are already down. Help fix a broken system that can work for those who don't have the choices.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2008, 02:22:29 PM by Cynthia »

Amianthus

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2008, 02:21:55 PM »
We are scattering to the winds currently. I say don't kick us when we are already down. Help fix a broken system that can work for those who don't have the choices.

Public schools are already funded at a higher rate than any other form of schooling. It's time (possibly past time) for them to start competing for that higher level of funding.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2008, 02:32:05 PM »
We are scattering to the winds currently. I say don't kick us when we are already down. Help fix a broken system that can work for those who don't have the choices.

Public schools are already funded at a higher rate than any other form of schooling. It's time (possibly past time) for them to start competing for that higher level of funding.

Not in our state they are not funded at such a "higher rate", Ami. we test areas we can't even teach because of the mandates from the state. We are now mandated to teach scripted programs in order to make sure the kids can read. But, the tests only analyze one element of the child's life; Reading..but reading; phonics; phonemic awareness, sans the focus on content and knowledge....it's not working out for the kids in the end. . and like I said, that wasn't the case even ten years ago. . .How can one compete on the playing field when one side is really and truly disabled.

I think, in time, Ami, your point will prove well taken and correct. But, not all the schools are there yet. and Ironically, I believe the NCLB act to be a good thing, if it can irons out the wrinkles that are clearly seen by people like myself.

Tests apples and teach apples.

We used to do just that.

I suppose itt's a critical mass time in this country....and in such case, we have to allow for the tide to roll with the ebbing.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2008, 02:33:48 PM by Cynthia »

BT

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2008, 02:58:58 PM »
The system is indeed at critical mass. What the judges decision achieved was to perpetuate the monopoly of state run public education.

When they say that parents must be certified to teach homeschool they took away equal protection rights.

The state can issue emergency credentials for it's own uncertified teachers.

Who will issue such emergency credentials to the home school market?


Amianthus

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2008, 03:09:43 PM »
Not in our state they are not funded at such a "higher rate", Ami.

New Mexico spends about $7,600 per pupil. Most private schools budget quite a bit less than this - they average about $3,500. Only the top end private schools for the children of the rich budget in the vicinity of $10,000 for each student, and many public school systems are approaching this level of budgeting, and several have surpassed it already (NY and CA).

Tests apples and teach apples.

It's up to the state to decide what to test. I think your problems lie with your state administrators. States who feel that the sciences are part of a good education will test sciences as well, such as Minnesota and North Carolina. The goal of NCLB, however, remains making sure that all students learn the "three Rs" - readin' ritin' and rithmatic. Too many functionally illiterate children were graduating from public high schools for too many years.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2008, 03:23:37 PM »
When they say that parents must be certified to teach homeschool they took away equal protection rights.


Why not be certified? Isn't that important?

The state can issue emergency credentials for it's own uncertified teachers.


 
Frankly, the gov. mandates in the opposite direction. . . teachers who are already highly qualified are asked to jump through hoops in order to show a qualification for the satisfaction of the NCLB act. . . I have to say that the government has issued such mandates a heck of a lot more than they have issued such emergence credentials.

Who will issue such emergency credentials to the home school market?


Who will monitor the teachers in teh home schooling market, is my question.

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2008, 03:40:50 PM »
Not in our state they are not funded at such a "higher rate", Ami.

New Mexico spends about $7,600 per pupil. Most private schools budget quite a bit less than this - they average about $3,500. Only the top end private schools for the children of the rich budget in the vicinity of $10,000 for each student, and many public school systems are approaching this level of budgeting, and several have surpassed it already (NY and CA).


Tests apples and teach apples.

It's up to the state to decide what to test. I think your problems lie with your state administrators. States who feel that the sciences are part of a good education will test sciences as well, such as Minnesota and North Carolina. The goal of NCLB, however, remains making sure that all students learn the "three Rs" - readin' ritin' and rithmatic. Too many functionally illiterate children were graduating from public high schools for too many years.

Ok, well, perhaps that is true on paper, but in so many ways we don't seem to reap from such  funding, as I see it. We are poor as crap. The schools are forced to rally to pass bond issues in order to fix old and dilapidated buildings....where's the money for all the problems we face? It sure doesn't appear to be a rich source here in our state...
I shot from the hip on that one, Ami....

So, then again maybe we  need more funding. I am not savvy to that end of the details, But thanks, Ami for your feedback. 

As for your second point.

We are mandated by district to teach specific reading and math "scripted programs" in order to help kids improve..sure, that's ok. I agree with it, actually and for the very reasons you've stated.

Not to mention that kids need to be able to read by the end of third grade. As studies have shown ---if kids can't read by then, there is the possibility of a higher drop out rate.
But, then we need to assess what we teach!! The standardized tests assess the areas of the curriculum things NEVER even covered in these quality research based scripted programs. 

You are right on...it is indeed the state administrators who have to catch up, imo.

But, then in the meantime, our kids struggle and feel like crap and so do we...and ----AND..we are put on a sort of probationary action for not measuring up..thus my frustration.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2008, 03:44:31 PM by Cynthia »

Amianthus

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2008, 04:39:33 PM »
Ok, well, perhaps that is true on paper, but in so many ways we don't seem to reap from such  funding, as I see it. We are poor as crap. The schools are forced to rally to pass bond issues in order to fix old and dilapidated buildings....where's the money for all the problems we face? It sure doesn't appear to be a rich source here in our state...

The private schools have the same issues regarding buildings and other problems, and they handle it with a smaller budget.

Personally, I see the administration failing in this regard. In the Baltimore school system, there was about 1 administration person for every 2 teachers. That ratio is ridiculous. In the private school my daughter went to, there were 3 people in the administration for a school with over 20 teachers, and one of those also taught an advanced math class during one period.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

BT

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2008, 05:09:55 PM »
Quote
Who will monitor the teachers in the home schooling market, is my question.

The standardized tests will set benchmarks. And that will in fact monitor the teachers as well as the home school students.

Unfortunately many in the Public School system feel that it is insulting to use standardized testing to monitor themselves.

Personally credentialing must be a joke because apparently the credentialed teachers in the public schools fear head to head competition from the non credentialed teachers in the home school market.




Xavier_Onassis

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2008, 06:07:43 PM »
Personally credentialing must be a joke because apparently the credentialed teachers in the public schools fear head to head competition from the non credentialed teachers in the home school market.

===================================
What evidence is there of this fear? Why do you say this is apparent?
How are the non credentialed teachers evaluated?

If you were a semi truck driver, and suddenly the boss came along and said :"I am going to replace some or all of you guys with guys who will work for less and have never driven a truck", what would your thoughts be?]

The same would be true for a doctor, a lawyer, a pharmacist, a stockbroker. So please.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2008, 07:02:55 PM »
Quote
What evidence is there of this fear? Why do you say this is apparent?

Because all i have read in this forum is that holding teachers accountable for test scores is punitive, that it isn't fair, that teachers are so afraid of losing their jobs they teach to the test and modify the curriculum to game the system.

I haven't seen any reports of this happening in private, parochial or home schools. Yet theses schools  seem to be able to beat the public schools in head to head competition even though public schools are usually better funded and the administrative staff is double that of non state run schools.

The issue isn't credentials. That is just gatekeeping and protectionism.

The issue is who can teach and who can't. And yes, standardized testing is a good way to measure those skills. Isn't that the way the chosen are credentialed?

 


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #74 on: March 09, 2008, 07:19:39 PM »
I haven't seen any reports of this happening in private, parochial or home schools. Yet theses schools  seem to be able to beat the public schools in head to head competition even though public schools are usually better funded and the administrative staff is double that of non state run schools.

In Florida, the FCAT is not given to anyone except public school students. So there is no comparison between the public and private schools.

Observe that even if the private schools WERE better in that their students scored higher, this is not proof of whom has the best school, because private schools get to choose who attends. They can shut out students with learning difficulties and can throw out students whose behavior is bad.

It is also true that the parents of private school students (a) have more money and (b) tend to care more about whether Junior learns. Parents who don't care will not pay extra. Wealthier parets are usually better educated than poorer ones, and that also makes a difference.

=============
The issue isn't credentials. That is just gatekeeping and protectionism.

The issue is who can teach and who can't. And yes, standardized testing is a good way to measure those skills. Isn't that the way the chosen are credentialed?

Well, no. Credentials depend on passing academic coursework, and this is not normally the result of standardized tests.

Why do right wingers oppose public schoolteachers? Because the NEA and AFT support Democrats, who in turn aee more likely to want to reward teachers for doing a good job.  Republicans are always for giving some sort of prize to the best 1 to 5% of the teachers.
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