Author Topic: California judge says no to homeschooling  (Read 111070 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #90 on: March 10, 2008, 12:50:10 AM »
Quote from: Xavier Onassis
Why do right wingers oppose public schoolteachers?

We do not oppose schoolteachers at all.  We also do not oppose public education.  We simply oppose the government forcing us to send our kids to schools where teachers are NOT accountable and then insisting that parents must be accountable

What is wrong with rewarding the good teachers and dumping the bad ones?  Every other industry works that way.  And private schools and parents certainly ought to be allowed to teach our children if we so choose.  The children should be tested, to be sure, to be certain that they are learning appropriate skills for their level, but if the parents are doing the job there is no reason to force kids to go to government schools.


A very Plane-like concise answer. 

*golf clap*
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Cynthia

  • Guest
Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #91 on: March 10, 2008, 12:54:28 AM »
"Virginia has had an excellent school system - best of the bunch actually, which surprised me. "

A few years ago, Alexandria was given the honor of being THE BEST city in the nation to raise a child.


Cynthia

  • Guest
Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #92 on: March 10, 2008, 12:59:49 AM »
Quote from: Xavier Onassis
Why do right wingers oppose public schoolteachers?

We do not oppose schoolteachers at all.  We also do not oppose public education.  We simply oppose the government forcing us to send our kids to schools where teachers are NOT accountable and then insisting that parents must be accountable

What is wrong with rewarding the good teachers and dumping the bad ones?  Every other industry works that way.  And private schools and parents certainly ought to be allowed to teach our children if we so choose.  The children should be tested, to be sure, to be certain that they are learning appropriate skills for their level, but if the parents are doing the job there is no reason to force kids to go to government schools.


A very Plane-like concise answer. 

*golf clap*

....schools where teachers are NOT accountable and then insisting that parents must be accountable




if the parents are doing the job there is no reason to force kids to go to government schools

But, Pooch, aren't you sort of saying the same thing here ---that parents be held accountable?  ???

fatman

  • Guest
Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #93 on: March 10, 2008, 01:02:13 AM »
A very Plane-like concise answer. 

Where is Plane anyway?  I haven't seen him around of late.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16140
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #94 on: March 10, 2008, 01:05:29 AM »
Quote
The tests are given in Feb!!!

Who sets the test date?

Stray Pooch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 860
  • Pray tell me, sir, whose dog are you?
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #95 on: March 10, 2008, 01:18:33 AM »
Quote from: Pooch
....schools where teachers are NOT accountable and then insisting that parents must be accountable

if the parents are doing the job there is no reason to force kids to go to government schools

But, Pooch, aren't you sort of saying the same thing here ---that parents be held accountable?  ???
[/quote]

Actually, though I didn't express it very well, I am saying that BOTH should be held accountable.  If children in a homseschooling situation are not meeting standards, then I would accept requiring them to move into a public school for remediation.  That is the equivalent of firing the parents as teachers.  But if the kids aren't meeting the standards at school, the teachers not doing the job should be required to find new employment.  Of course, rational standards would need to be applied, since no teacher can insure that ALL children under their care will learn appropriately.  But if a teacher is consistently failing to get kids up to standard, no union should be able to save the teacher's job.  

The situation in California is now, of course, that parents have no rights at all.  That's wrong.  The situation throughout much of the nation is that teachers do not need to be competent to teach.  That's also wrong.  Parents should have the right to choose how and where their children are educated - including their own homes - provided that appropriate safeguards are in place to insure an effective education.   Those safeguards should extend into the government education system as well.  Whoever educates our children should be accountable foremost for that education.
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Cynthia

  • Guest
Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #96 on: March 10, 2008, 01:24:01 AM »
"We do not oppose schoolteachers at all.  We also do not oppose public education."

But, with all due respect, Pooch, you have mentioned school teachers in your post and not favorably.

The good teachers who work hard, learn new methods, provide the best for kids are thrown into the mix of "bad teachers", because of test scores. I really can not understand why the public has come to the conclusion that if a school produces low test scores, that that equates to bad teachers. Where is the accountability on the part of the system administrators!
It's difficult to teach in this day and age when the government sits back and mandates that we teach what it wants us to teach..... I suppose I could argue the same thing....government, get out of our faces!!
Mandated curriculum with time constraints which removes rich and vital curricula right out of the minds of our children.
In the end it equates to failure and then, out of the shoot....we get the blame.

I say damn the government for imposing such constraints on schools...and then bashing teachers. Leave it to mainstream media for spreading such streams of thought. It leaves out so much that is qualityt, and perpetuates negative thinking.....and is plain jus NO FAIR.

I applaud home schooling. I do. I applaud choice. I do. And I celebrate  parents who want what is best for their children.
Ironically, my posts from yesterday did seem to imply similar sentiments......that there are bound to be bad teachers in the home schooling arena. I suppose I am doing the same thing to make a point. Regulation, accountablility...no, I hate to see a system that should be offered a nation go over the falls...and  Gov. pushing the ship overboard.

I believe there are fantastic public schools in this country. I know there are.

I have yet to come in contact with such incompetence and failure as has been mentioned here on this board. I suppose in years to come there might just be a resistence against private schools or home schooling, but for now, public schools are suffering unjustly, I feel.

 It's a shame that  people never offer what can be done to improve a system for those kids who can not afford the luxury of private schooling or home schooling.

Ok tired and must hit the sack..

Springing forward to another day of facilitating and providing valuable learning possibilities for children who wouldn't get it at home, that's for sure.

Stray Pooch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 860
  • Pray tell me, sir, whose dog are you?
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #97 on: March 10, 2008, 02:03:47 AM »
"We do not oppose schoolteachers at all.  We also do not oppose public education."

But, with all due respect, Pooch, you have mentioned school teachers in your post and not favorably.

Where?   I have no problem with school teachers at all.  Had I not joined the Army I intended to become a music teacher myself.  I am going to have to ask you to provide an example of an unfavorable comment about schoolteachers that I made.  I would be very surprised if I have done so.  Now I have often mentioned teacher's UNIONS as a problem, and I have probably cited specific examples of INCOMPETENT teachers.  Yes, I object to both.  But schoolteachers in general I have a great deal of respect for.  A competent teacher is a valuable asset and a gifted teacher is a treasure.

The good teachers who work hard, learn new methods, provide the best for kids are thrown into the mix of "bad teachers", because of test scores. I really can not understand why the public has come to the conclusion that if a school produces low test scores, that that equates to bad teachers.

For the same reason that a losing baseball team equates to bad players.  It's probably true that in sports more emphasis is placed on dumping the manager because it is easier to do that than dump a lot of overpaid players, but the Orioles suck right now because the players suck.  Earl Weaver wouldn't have been the superstar manager he was without Brooks and Frank Robinson, Jim Palmer, Dave McNally, Mike Cuellar and that crowd.  And he couldn't take this latest bunch above third place in his best season.  (Sorry, sad baseball rant digression.)  Teachers are the front line.  If they are not able to produce results, they are pretty much accountable.  I'll grant that poor adminsitrators, conflicting requirements, ESL challenges and other such issues need to be factored into the mix, but the bottom line is that - all other things being equal - the teachers who produce should be better paid and retained and those who do not should be paid less or replaced.  Like I said, every other industry does it that way.

I say damn the government for imposing such constraints on schools...and then bashing teachers. Leave it to mainstream media for spreading such streams of thought. It leaves out so much that is qualityt, and perpetuates negative thinking.....and is plain jus NO FAIR.

What is wrong with requiring minimum achievement levels?  I agree that we need to have things like music, art and athletics in our schools to round out an education.  But the bottom line is that a person who can't read is not very likely to grasp the concept of metaphor in literature.  A person who can't do basic math is not going to be able to analyze harmony.  A person who can't grasp the basic concepts of English grammar is going to have a tough time learning a foreign language.  And in the end, as important as cultural training and other such quality of life issues are, I can't spend a lot of time appreciating the use of directional force in a painting if I am busy working twelve hour shifts at a low paying job because I lack basic literacy.

Ironically, my posts from yesterday did seem to imply similar sentiments......that there are bound to be bad teachers in the home schooling arena. I suppose I am doing the same thing to make a point.

But that is a perfectly rational point.  There ARE going to be lousy home teachers, and they should be held just as accountable as any other teacher.


I have yet to come in contact with such incompetence and failure as has been mentioned here on this board. I suppose in years to come there might just be a resistence against private schools or home schooling, but for now, public schools are suffering unjustly, I feel.

Oh, I have.  Aside from the aforementioned Georgia school (in Augusta.  They were unbelievable.) I have had some teachers in my life who had no business in the field.  My US History teacher in High School and my Algebra teacher in Jr High come to mind.  Cedar stump dumb.  Rock dumb.  Can't spell your name dumb.  But I was fortunate to have a geography teacher in the 10th Grade who was shocked to find that all the kids from our Jr High knew virtually nothing about Algebra and did double duty teaching us Algebra as we went along.  She and I never got along, because she was a no-nonsense type and I was class clown, but in retrospect she was a great teacher.  I had her again in the 12th and she pointedly asked me to transfer on the first day.  I didn't and we got along for the rest of that year.  And I had some teachers who I would love to meet today and give some kind of award.  My Jr High Biology teacher, my College English Comp instructor, my third-grade teacher who treated me like gold, not to mention a host of music teachers.  But yeah, I've seen some incredible incompetence.  It's out there.


It's a shame that  people never offer what can be done to improve a system for those kids who can not afford the luxury of private schooling or home schooling.

Well, that's what standardized testing is supposed to do.  It makes sure kids are learning what they ought to be. 

Springing forward to another day of facilitating and providing valuable learning possibilities for children who wouldn't get it at home, that's for sure.

Well, that begs the question, but since I don't know the parents involved you may be right. 
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #98 on: March 10, 2008, 03:52:54 AM »

It's a shame that  people never offer what can be done to improve a system for those kids who can not afford the luxury of private schooling or home schooling.


Oh, but people do. All the damn time. School vouchers. School competition. Charter schools. Here, take a look at this: http://reason.tv/video/show/60.html. Or this: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338. The point being, there are plenty of people trying to change the system, improve the system, make public school better, but the system fights and fights hard to stop them. You speak of shame, but that people who care just as much as you do about helping the children and are trying to do something better for the children are denounced and fought all the time, imo, that is what is shameful.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Cynthia

  • Guest
Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #99 on: March 10, 2008, 12:53:43 PM »

"Well, that begs the question, but since I don't know the parents involved you may be right."

Trust me, I am right.

But, I understand where you and UP and all are also coming from. So thanks for chance to debate. I learned a lot and had a lot of fun...surprisingly.

 :)

Ciao for now.

Cynthia


Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #100 on: March 10, 2008, 01:12:02 PM »
There are LOTS of private schools that are not accredited and the state does nothing about it.


Then they are violating the law.
====================================================================
Here in Miami-Dade County, there were several schools that were set up to get students, mostly good at sports, to pass their GED exams, and thereby qualify for athletic scholarships. These schools somehow managed to administer the exams themselves, and guess what? even though the classes met for only four hours twice a week at most, EVERYONE passed and got their GED's. The schools were not accredited by anyone and no FCATs were given, though every one of their students failed the FCATS and had been awarded 'attendance certificates' in lieu of diplomas.

Eventually the Miami Herald wrote a series of articles about these, and even though Fredreica Wilson, a Black State Representative perrsonally knew the director of one of these schools and protested greatly, one day, each of these schools closed their facilities, took down their signs and vanished *poof!* just like that.

No one was prosecuted, and nothing happened.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #101 on: March 10, 2008, 01:31:28 PM »
No one was prosecuted, and nothing happened.

Sad that your local prosecutors don't take their jobs seriously.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #102 on: March 10, 2008, 01:33:24 PM »
A number of young athletes did get their GED's this way, and went on to College for their scholarships.

No graduate of these schools has ever actually graduated from any college. Some of them were actually illiterate.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

kimba1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7966
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #103 on: March 10, 2008, 01:56:47 PM »
But if the kids aren't meeting the standards at school, the teachers not doing the job should be required to find new employment>

sounds like a good idea,but missing One small detail.
teachers are not disposable and cannot be replaced at a whim with or without unions.
there is a reason some teachers are not very qualified .
it`s called a teacher`s shortage.
strangely we`re not addressing how incredibly tough this job is and not once say why more people should become teachers.
AT least my governer want to add combat pay to teacher at poorer performing schools.
he got in trouble for that of course.


Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #104 on: March 10, 2008, 02:35:21 PM »
One truth about education is rarely mentioned. Teaching bright, motivated students is extremely satisfying, and generally pays a LOT more than teaching drudges from the trailer parks, ghettoes and hardscrabble farms of Appalachia.

A full professor at Cal Tech will teach five classes and year and get over $130K. A community College teacher will teach eight or ten classes and get maybe $60, as little as $40K at the smaller private colleges.

The worst thing that can happen to you at a highly rated university is your students will outshine you, and will ask questions you can't answer. At a poor university or college, your problems are buying a home, raising a family, and the usual problems of the declining American middle class.

There are two reasons people choose teaching: money and job satisfaction. Unfortunately the jobs that pay a lot have the highest job satisfaction as well.

Why don't they fire incompetent teachers? Because they are better than the average guy off the street, that's why, and the average guy off the street does not have the degree or the certification. The other problem is determining who is incompetent. Some teachers just don't know the subject matter. Others do not know how to teach it, others do not know how to teach it while dealing with the disabled kid, the autistic kid, the class clown, the smartass, the bully and the pest. It is not an easy chore. Most people can't do it.

What happens to good teachers? Many of them become administrators, because that pays a LOT more, and requires less frustration. No one makes secret farting noises in the principal's office. No one thows spitballs at the Vice principal.

Of course, really good teachers should be paid more and NOT turned into administrators.

In a perfect world, the best teachers should be teaching the most difficult classes, like the guy in the film "Stand and Deliver", for example. This happen so very rarely that they have to make a film of it when it does happen.

I observe that Frank McCourt, who wrote "Angela's Ashes"and "Tis", retired from the NY public schools at age 58.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."