Author Topic: California judge says no to homeschooling  (Read 111078 times)

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kimba1

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #120 on: March 15, 2008, 11:20:57 PM »
The money builds schools and maintains them and pays the electricity.
It pays for the schoolbooks and computers and a lot more stuff.
What exactly do you expect to see bought for the kids?
Why would you assume that you would see evidence of it unless you are inside the schools?

uhm last year at least 3 schools shutdown and several other has barely useable bathrooms and most schools are known to have outdated books.
so I`m pretty sure my statement that the money is not accounted for still stands

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #121 on: March 15, 2008, 11:55:04 PM »
Quote
Bt, with all due respect...you don't listen.

Cynthia, with all due respect.... I do listen.

For example i distinctly "heard" you state that administering the test in february was idiocy.

That testing for the whole curriculum so early in the year was a setup for failure.

So i dug a bit.

Georgia has their tests in April.

Same with California.

NCLB declares that the states design and implement the tests.

Which means in your case, NM is responsible for your dissatisfaction.

Did i "mishear" you?




Bt,No, you haven't been reading the entire thread of my argument. I have told you that I take issue with NCLB and  that the "act" is at the heart of what is harming so many public school children in this country. The punitive actions are based on absolute unrealistic expectations, but you refuse to hear that. You interpret those actions to be the natural response to bad teaching, and bad teachers.....in total. No. Not true. Find out more. I am spent here trying to tell you about the expectations that are unreasonable.

I have seen the difference in the classroom and you refuse to listen to what is happening.  There are just too many problems with the "act".

Testing is part of any school system...home schooling included, of course. That goes without saying. I am not necessarily arguing with that. I am arguing with you on the point that testing alone is not a complete measure of a good education. Not all.....I am not saying testing or assessments are worthless. There is more to a child than a test.

I was wrong about the fact that homeschooling produces higher scores than the PS system of today. I was in the dark ages and I disagree with MT on that now. There is no abuse if the parents are qualified and do a damn good job of educating their children. In fact, the way things are going in the PS's I think they are doing a better job. When I taught kindergarten in the late 70's, we gave our children all the hands on learning, enriched experiences and plenty of opportunities to grow. That's not teh case now. Stepford kids are being told to sit for 90 minutes (age 5) in order to chime letter sounds.....there are fewer and fewer E.C.E classrooms on the docket these days.

 The fact is that the home is an environment rich with all that is comforting, literate  and 'hands on', which is what we have offered children in the PS until the NCLB act came about.  We are now mandated by the trickle down effect of the NCLB ACT to teach scripted programs. There is no more 'engagement" in the curriculum. They children must repeat after me....."sound" ai...ay...."sound" when I put my finger on a letter cluster you repeat after me....GO!. Our district has taken away so much, BT.
We are not even allowed to go on field trips anymore.---too risky. Law suits.  We can't teach social studies, science and the arts. Why? Not just Richardson, that's for sure.

Home schooling is a better solution and I even agree with that now...and if for nothing else, it offers a lower student teacher ratio right off the bat.

If I were a parent, I wouldn't have the courage to send my child to a public school today.

But, the children who do not have that luxury of being home schooled or attending a private school, have every right to a complete and well rounded education. They are losing that more now than ever. I see it!!! You might disagree on a political stance, but I see it first hand. You can't tell me that the issue isn't up there as a major one for no reason at all, BT. come on....otherwise, my argument would not hold water...as it would be based on Richardson's croonies. BUt no.

YEs, IT IS the NCLB act that is at the heart of all that is wrong with education in teh public sector today.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 12:56:17 AM by Cynthia »

BT

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #122 on: March 16, 2008, 12:32:23 AM »
Why would you not have a problem with the state dept of education.

They are the ones who schedule and design the test. And design and scheduling seems to be your biggest complaint.



Xavier_Onassis

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #123 on: March 16, 2008, 12:53:38 AM »
uhm last year at least 3 schools shutdown and several other has barely useable bathrooms and most schools are known to have outdated books.
so I`m pretty sure my statement that the money is not accounted for still stands
==================================================================
I don;t think that is adequate proof. Perhaps there was not enough money. Perhaps it was spent unwisely.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #124 on: March 16, 2008, 01:18:19 AM »
Quote
Bt, with all due respect...you don't listen.

Cynthia, with all due respect.... I do listen.

For example i distinctly "heard" you state that administering the test in february was idiocy.

That testing for the whole curriculum so early in the year was a setup for failure.

So i dug a bit.

Georgia has their tests in April.

Same with California.

NCLB declares that the states design and implement the tests.

Which means in your case, NM is responsible for your dissatisfaction.

Did i "mishear" you?




Bt,No, you haven't been reading the entire thread of my argument. I have told you that I take issue with NCLB and  that the "act" is at the heart of what is harming so many public school children in this country. The punitive actions are based on absolute unrealistic expectations, but you refuse to hear that. You interpret those actions to be the natural response to bad teaching, and bad teachers.....in total. No. Not true. Find out more. I am spent here trying to tell you about the expectations that are unreasonable.

I have seen the difference in the classroom and you refuse to listen to what is happening.  There are just too many problems with the "act".

Testing is part of any school system...home schooling included, of course. That goes without saying. I am not necessarily arguing with that. I am arguing with you on the point that testing alone is not a complete measure of a good education. Not all.....I am not saying testing or assessments are worthless. There is more to a child than a test.

I was wrong about the fact that homeschooling produces higher scores than the PS system of today. I was in the dark ages and I disagree with MT on that now. There is no abuse if the parents are qualified and do a damn good job of educating their children. In fact, the way things are going in the PS's I think they are doing a better job. When I taught kindergarten in the late 70's, we gave our children all the hands on learning, enriched experiences and plenty of opportunities to grow. That's not teh case now. Stepford kids are being told to sit for 90 minutes (age 5) in order to chime letter sounds.....there are fewer and fewer E.C.E classrooms on the docket these days.

 The fact is that the home is an environment rich with all that is comforting, literate  and 'hands on', which is what we have offered children in the PS until the NCLB act came about.  We are now mandated by the trickle down effect of the NCLB ACT to teach scripted programs. There is no more 'engagement" in the curriculum. They children must repeat after me....."sound" ai...ay...."sound" when I put my finger on a letter cluster you repeat after me....GO!. Our district has taken away so much, BT.
We are not even allowed to go on field trips anymore.---too risky. Law suits.  We can't teach social studies, science and the arts. Why? Not just Richardson, that's for sure.

Home schooling is a better solution and I even agree with that now...and if for nothing else, it offers a lower student teacher ratio right off the bat.

If I were a parent, I wouldn't have the courage to send my child to a public school today.

But, the children who do not have that luxury of being home schooled or attending a private school, have every right to a complete and well rounded education. They are losing that more now than ever. I see it!!! You might disagree on a political stance, but I see it first hand. You can't tell me that the issue isn't up there as a major one for no reason at all, BT. come on....otherwise, my argument would not hold water...as it would be based on Richardson's croonies. BUt no.

YEs, IT IS the NCLB act that is at the heart of all that is wrong with education in teh public sector today.

http://www.nea.org/esea/overhaul.html

BT. This is my stance. Period. I know you are probably biased against the NEA as a link source, but this link and all that it provides, rings true for me and so many teachers.....

BT

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #125 on: March 16, 2008, 01:22:14 AM »
If testing in February is not the problem, then why did you bring it up?

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #126 on: March 16, 2008, 01:32:30 AM »
There are many problem areas in this system, BT.

February testing is just one of them. Of course there is a problem with that, as well. I am not saying that that alone is the culprit. We have tested in early spring for years now. The car needs a major overhaul and those tires were flat years ago.

There are so many 'problem areas' in this thing, BT.

 


BT

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #127 on: March 16, 2008, 01:35:28 AM »
Quote
The fact is that the home is an environment rich with all that is comforting, literate  and 'hands on', which is what we have offered children in the PS until the NCLB act came about.

What utter nonsense. Public schools have been in trouble since Carter. Why do you think there is a cabinet level Secretary of Education.

But you are correct about one thing. The problem seems to have mushroomed since schools got away from their core mission and implemented a whole slew of new methodologies around the beginning of the 70's.





Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #128 on: March 16, 2008, 01:47:48 AM »
Quote
The fact is that the home is an environment rich with all that is comforting, literate  and 'hands on', which is what we have offered children in the PS until the NCLB act came about.

What utter nonsense. Public schools have been in trouble since Carter. Why do you think there is a cabinet level Secretary of Education.

But you are correct about one thing. The problem seems to have mushroomed since schools got away from their core mission and implemented a whole slew of new methodologies around the beginning of the 70's.






You know it was President Woodrow Wilson who had "his way with education" back in the 1920's. He is the one who decided that the lower class folks would learn to compute math in the algorithmic fashion -keeping them stupid, but productive, -----while the upper class folks were provided the quality education--constructivism. He was responsible for shifting that class education into action, unfortunately
The constructivist method was the primary and  the best method of teaching at the turn of the last century.

But, the public schools have stuck with Wilson's turn of events---the behaviorist mentality ever since. Thus the birth of the public school system....way before the 1970's.

Ironically,  we are on a new horizon in terms of constructivism in the teaching of mathematics.
I think it's a wonderful way to teach young children..... instead of memorizing facts, spitting out dates, and thoughts that come from the teacher instead of within the child.

It's a hard job to teach in teh constructivist viewpoint, but I think, in the end, children will learn to think and .........

perhaps be terrific debaters on teh 3DHS board someday.... ;)

Good Night
 

« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 11:33:52 AM by Cynthia »

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #129 on: March 16, 2008, 12:05:30 PM »
Quote
The fact is that the home is an environment rich with all that is comforting, literate  and 'hands on', which is what we have offered children in the PS until the NCLB act came about.

What utter nonsense. Public schools have been in trouble since Carter. Why do you think there is a cabinet level Secretary of Education.

But you are correct about one thing. The problem seems to have mushroomed since schools got away from their core mission and implemented a whole slew of new methodologies around the beginning of the 70's.






"What utter nonsense. Public schools have been in trouble since Carter."
No, btw, that is not utter nonsense.
 Early Childhood Education classrooms in the PS held high standards in terms of providing quality "hands on experiences" for children. The E.C.E. method of instruction was solely based on the developmental needs of children, not to mention a direct and precise individualized instruction for each child. The kindergarten classrooms in our school provide quite the opposiet----a 90 minute blocks of time where the students must sit down and chime letters as a large group.

 The PS is becoming a one size fits all education system.
Things have changed. Homeschooling probably offers more of an Early Childhood approach based on the differentiated instruction, opportunities for direct and quality engagement between the child and the curriculum. Parents have the same opportunity to provide such quality. We once had the same luxury.

BT

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #130 on: March 16, 2008, 09:11:03 PM »
Please explain how promoting illiterate children all the way through high school is providing quality education for children.

Its not about the children. It's about the jobs.


sirs

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #131 on: March 16, 2008, 09:50:06 PM »
Its not about the children. It's about the jobs.

BINGO!!
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #132 on: March 16, 2008, 10:07:15 PM »
Please explain how promoting illiterate children all the way through high school is providing quality education for children.

It?s not about the children. It's about the jobs.



Well, first of all, I never said that I support promoting children  to first grade, let alone to H.S, especially if they are illiterate! The students in our schools in the 70's and 80's  were given a quality well rounded education and went on to graduate. I know because I have taught in the same community for that long. It does take a village to raise a child in a way...I hate to quote Hillary, but it's  true. It takes so many elements to bring a child through to the end these days. If one piece of the puzzle fails, then the child is dented, if not damaged for a long time.

Jobs are also more sophisticated in scope than 30 years ago. Yet, there are so many illiterate people working in the work force today...AND not necessarily because of their schooling. There are so many factors..... rotten parenting, social issues, mental issues, drugs, peer influence, etc. It's a stressful time to be a kid.

You throw a child into any classroom setting, even a private school---- without quality behind the scenes support, the child will more than likely fall behind, if not fail. I believe that to be true...for some, not all.
Children in our school district received a heck of a lot more in years past than they do now. In fact, the children of today are failing and falling behind more so than ever before.  I have at least three children who need to be retained because they are not going to make the grade...and I mean the 1st grade-grade. They are THAT behind. They came into the classroom, functioning at a 1st grade level. (I teach 3rd grade).  These particular children have severe learning disabilities. They can not be placed in special education.  Why?  Special education has gone through some pretty profound changes, as of late, and the push is to mainstream all students---all kids in one classroom...no matter what they need. You put 25 children with varying levels in one classroom coupled with a quality program that addresses all their needs, and you have a "fighting chance" to help them through to the next grade.  But, you add  3-4  severely low functioning students-students who  are barely able to read into the same classroom, with only one teacher/ no assistant, no assistance??...You see failure.

Things have changed so much in the public school system that your point of promotion to H>S> holds water BT...holds water for todays kids...not the kids of the past.  

It's about the children getting the jobs. It's about the quality of the child's life. There is shame in the system that assumes that ALL children are capable of learning at the same rate. You don't see that, I DO! I have never seen it before now, btw.

This is a man who speak for me.
Teach Like Your Hair's on Fire...by Rafe Esquity

« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 10:12:13 PM by Cynthia »

BT

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #133 on: March 16, 2008, 10:28:27 PM »
Cynthia,

This isn't about you. I am sure you are a fine dedicated teacher doing the best under difficult circumstances.

But you have to admit that most of the resistance to the accountability that comes with programs like the NCLB seem to be more concerned with protecting their turf than improving the lot of the kids they are charged with educating.

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #134 on: March 16, 2008, 11:32:16 PM »
Cynthia,

This isn't about you. I am sure you are a fine dedicated teacher doing the best under difficult circumstances.

But you have to admit that most of the resistance to the accountability that comes with programs like the NCLB seem to be more concerned with protecting their turf than improving the lot of the kids they are charged with educating.

But, Bt...it is about me and all good teachers.

When someone like you and Sirs makes a comment about NOT BEING ABOUT THE CHILD ..and instead BEING ABOUT JOBS? >>>I can't sit back, I cringe.
I know that I am a good teacher, Bill. I have taught for 32 years of my life. That's more than half of my life. My goodness. ...but I have NEVER seen such a blatant and fractured system since the NCLB act came into being. The premise was / is a good one, don't get me wrong. Please don't get me wrong. I am all for every single thing that has been posted on this thread if it means a betterment of children's education and our job culture, etc.

My thoughts, my experiences ,  my expressions, and frustrations speak for all educators out there, BT.

No, I don't think you can broad stroke and say that MOST/ALL OR even some teachers are trying to protect their TURF.  NOT ONE teacher that I know of does that. Not one.

I would venture to guess that I represent many educators in this new "world of education"..why?
 Becuase of the unjust regulations against good schools and decent teachers and in the end....children's lives. I posted a link about such things yesterday. But, the idea that it comes from teh NEA is going to outrage most conservatives...But, to make a point....it's not about unions...it's about children.

OF COURSE there have been bad ass apples in the system. Of course there are going to be those who bitch about accountability....But, my goodness, it isn't in our blood to complain about whether or not we HAVE TO BE SUDDENLY ACCOUNTABLE.

On average, teachers who love this job go into it because they want to. So many teachers have had to put up with a hell of a lot more than a rush to panic over THE NCLB act...i.e. community struggles, kids on drugs, the society that doesn't give a damn...etc etc etc....and yet, why the heck would those teachers whine and bitch about accountability?? This job is hard enough as it is!  I disagree with your assessment in total, Bt.

Ok let's look at the facts...just the facts. Read the link that I posted yesterday. Those are hard facts against the act itself. There are problems. Period. My goodness....so why sweep those issues under a rug? Let's fix them. STop blaming.

Sure, you've presented homeschooling studies and factual information recently. Gosh, I see now that they are spot on. I think that we are in such a damn critical mass time in education BECAUSE OF THE BUSH administration...and the Kennedy and the CLinton...whomever started this broken bandaid.
But, to say that the teachers AS A WHOLE are complaining about having to be accountable is just not true. You speak in terms of ALL...BT. You do...you stroke the canvas as a Republican and be damned the personal and experienced details that decorate teh landscape that is education in this day and age.

The NCLB system is not supportive. It is a dictatorship of sorts. The NCLB act is not good enough. That is all I am saying.

 I have never seen such a willingness to cut throat, to pressure, not to mention threaten to take out individuals who have worked so hard. This is crazy behavior. There is something wrong with this picture.

I have tried to outline the results of such actions as I see them.

Point:
There is no time to teach science.... No more to teach social studies. No time to teach art/music. Now NOW....NO time to teach bi-lingual ed. ( I can only speak for our school district)

Omgoodness. Bill....you must see it to believe it. In fact, I can't believe that any Republican is at the heart of all of this fiasco.

I am the first one to say that we need help to make certain that no child is left behind...but my goodness, what I am seeing is horrific, Bill. The students are suffering ..and for what? The political stance of one president and his own cronies? Not right. Not accurate. Not good enough. Peter the Principal has risen to the plate of injustice.
If you look at the facts, you see that there is an unreasonable expectation coupled with a punitive action against schools/teachers/districts/and eventually children..and it  has nothing to do with one or two egos bitching about having to be "accountable".

It has everything to do with pressuring schools to make the grade and beat out other corps. HOw? By taking away??

That's all I am saying here, Bill.
I disagree wtih the way it is being handled. NCLB is a good idea. But, the children are falling more behind.



« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 11:38:00 PM by Cynthia »