Author Topic: California judge says no to homeschooling  (Read 111364 times)

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BT

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #135 on: March 17, 2008, 07:49:44 AM »
I disagree.

The problem is not with NCLB. All that does is set standards are require accountability.

The problem is with how states are implementing NCLB.

Curriculum changes are state driven. Teaching to the test is state driven.

The states are attempting to game the system. While screaming to the rafters that they are being held accountable.

Let's look at another example of federal standards.

Let's say the feds decide that all domestically produced vehicles attain a minimum standard of 40 mpg in city driving. The law leaves it up to the manufactures to determine how they will meet these standards. However if they can't meet the standards their vehicles will no longer be allowed on the roads.

The aims of the legislation are good. Reduce consumption and therefore reduce emissions and dependency on foreign oil. Foreign manufactures are already meeting these goals.

Ford is having trouble meeting the requirements. So the first thing they do is say they can't meet the standards because the fed hasn't funded the mandate. Then the unions get into the act because they fear the loss of jobs if the standards aren't met. So they fund studies that show that increased Cafe standards are a bad thing and are discriminatory against minority and ESL workers because they are incapable of the increased quality control necessary in the manufacturing process to achieve the goals.

Meanwhile the board of directors in fear of reduced revenues concentrates all their efforts on the engine, drive train and fuel delivery system. They cut R&D on brakes, electrical and safety featured.

Sound familiar?

Yet that is not the letter nor the spirit of the law.








Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #136 on: March 17, 2008, 12:19:14 PM »
The problem is not with NCLB. All that does is set standards are require accountability.

Yes, it sets standards that require accountability, as it should. I agree with that, but BT, there are critical flaws within the act. As those flaws get ironed out, I do believe that the NCLB act will support everyone involved.



sirs

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #137 on: March 17, 2008, 08:39:48 PM »
Quote
Sirs, Explain why you think, Bingo...please.

Strangely the post I was trying to respond to wasn't working, but I happened to have kept the particular post on my computer to more properly respond to it when I could

Let me again reference my substantial respect for teachers, both in the Public & Private sectors.  You couldn't pay me enough to put up with the "stuff" they have to, be it from the kids, the parents, and/or their own administrators. 

Now, to focus on the query, minus all the "nuance", the teacher's unions, as exemplified by both the NEA & the CTA, .....and perhaps that's too vague, let's say the leadership of those unions, have made it crystal clear that children are not their priority, education is not their priority, job security is.  Whether its teachers, assistant principals, or principals.  One can easly come to that conclusion based on the pervasive efforts made to both stifle any competition that would in turn facilitate even better efficiency & teaching ability, at all grade levels, and in making it nearly impossible to fire incompotent or worse, predatory teachers/principals.  I heard a story just today in the LA Unified School district who blew millions of dollars on a payroll computer system, that's still sending checks to dead teachers, a YEAR LATER.  You also have this Principal who instead of being fired for his prior conduct or at minimum kept away from any & all children, had some form of "must be placed" designation, and placed at Watts Middle School, where neither teachers nor administrators were told of his background, and now he's alledged to have sexually assaulted a 13year old girl. 

It should have never gotten that far, Miss Cynthia.  But his job apparently was more important than the children he was going to be put in contact with.  That's just 1 of a whole host of examples as to why I "bingo'd" Bt's post
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 10:15:54 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #138 on: March 17, 2008, 11:03:21 PM »
Quote
Sirs, Explain why you think, Bingo...please.

Strangely the post I was trying to respond to wasn't working, but I happened to have kept the particular post on my computer to more properly respond to it when I could

Let me again reference my substantial respect for teachers, both in the Public & Private sectors.  You couldn't pay me enough to put up with the "stuff" they have to, be it from the kids, the parents, and/or their own administrators. 

Now, to focus on the query, minus all the "nuance", the teacher's unions, as exemplified by both the NEA & the CTA, .....and perhaps that's too vague, let's say the leadership of those unions, have made it crystal clear that children are not their priority, education is not their priority, job security is.  Whether its teachers, assistant principals, or principals.  One can easly come to that conclusion based on the pervasive efforts made to both stifle any competition that would in turn facilitate even better efficiency & teaching ability, at all grade levels, and in making it nearly impossible to fire incompotent or worse, predatory teachers/principals.  I heard a story just today in the LA Unified School district who blew millions of dollars on a payroll computer system, that's still sending checks to dead teachers, a YEAR LATER.  You also have this Principal who instead of being fired for his prior conduct or at minimum kept away from any & all children, had some form of "must be placed" designation, and placed at Watts Middle School, where neither teachers nor administrators were told of his background, and now he's alledged to have sexually assaulted a 13year old girl. 

It should have never gotten that far, Miss Cynthia.  But his job apparently was more important than the children he was going to be put in contact with.  That's just 1 of a whole host of examples as to why I "bingo'd" Bt's post


Well, you haven't won the bingo game just yet, Sirs. Recall time.

"I heard a story just today in the LA Unified School district "

 So many times, we base our thoughts, reactions, and feelings on an issue based on what has been "heard" in the media ....and it seems to me that most, if not all of those "stories heard", are negative and do a good job of selling news(papers). Sure, that doesn't mean that some of those stories are not news "worthy", but that's all .

I have yet to see anyone publish all the thousands of wonderful things that occur on a daily basis in classrooms across this nation. ....and yet, in my direct world, I have seen them first hand and A LOT. I am privy to them from the elementary level to the University level, and for YEARS. not just last week's news.

Anyone who says that because ONE element of the system has been stained , then all the rest must also be a failure. ... the NEA for example. My gosh, they stand up for the many, many good teachers, Sirs.   You and BT continue to make broad stroke statement against such unions, as if they are in some sort of self serving bastards who want nothing else but to save the bad apple's asses.(jobs)
Wow, that's all you have to offer?


We as a culture drag good people and good working systems through the mud. There are many stories in tHE naked city...and hey, there just might be one GOOD ONE....ya think?

Why is it we base our "truth" or our debate on the most negative piece of news we can find....

ok...Sure, Catholic priests have harmed kids. Sure, some educators have harmed kids.....but you have to be kidding me if you want to erase all the rest of the population of such dedicated individuals in order to make a point?! Do you know how many thousands of good systems there are in this country? Private, Public, Charter, Homeschooling etc.

YEs, hundreds of thousands of people TEACH on a daily basis and yet we hear about the ONE IN your neck of the woods AND it  just happened to be published. Go figure.


You are not in the classroom...nor are you in the system...nor are you a member of any NEA union....You know for sure that they are ALL BAD?
 

Job security??   Oh give me a break. Sirs, did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe all systems, be they  PS school systems, or law firms, or Fruit Basket markets down 12th stree..... are filled with few bad apples?

More times than not, the NEA is there to support a good teacher who is being railroaded by a reaallly bad leader.

Sure, there are really stupid principals. There are many crazy administrators...but there are also very dedicated ones, as well.

And.... if such a  "Peter Principal" is in charge and your job is on the line... often times because of such ineptness, You're job and your integrity are just plain toast. That's horrible, but it's the nature of human beings who want POWER!
I, for one, have seen that happen. . and if it werent' for the union, some of those great teachers would be out.


« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 11:16:27 PM by Cynthia »

BT

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #139 on: March 18, 2008, 12:15:52 AM »
Cynthia,

If you were omnipotent, what changes would you make to the education system that provided for competency at grade level for all students as well as school system wide accountability?


sirs

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #140 on: March 18, 2008, 12:48:13 AM »
So many times, we base our thoughts, reactions, and feelings on an issue based on what has been "heard" in the media ....and it seems to me that most, if not all of those "stories heard", are negative and do a good job of selling news(papers). Sure, that doesn't mean that some of those stories are not news "worthy", but that's all .  I have yet to see anyone publish all the thousands of wonderful things that occur on a daily basis in classrooms across this nation.

Miss Cynthia, with all due respect, most people acknowledge the wonderful things that do happen in the classrooms.  In fact, most people acknowledge how hard teachers have it, and how difficult their job is.  I think you have this mindset that it's us vs them.  It's not.  It's US, as in ALL of us, Public Schools, Private Schools, AND Homeschooling.  You seem to be both denying the successes of Home Schooling, AND advocating how they basically aren't reliable nor credible, since they don't have the proper amount of state sponsored acredidation.  In essesnce, your pushing for precisely what you seem to be argueing about.  Do you not see that?


Anyone who says that because ONE element of the system has been stained , then all the rest must also be a failure. ...

And who the hell is saying that??


My gosh, they stand up for the many, many good teachers, Sirs.  

They stand up for ALL teachers & Union members, the incompotent and predatory ones as well.  and there in lies my problem with the NEA (& CTA)


You and BT continue to make broad stroke statement against such unions, as if they are in some sort of self serving bastards who want nothing else but to save the bad apple's asses.(jobs)  Wow, that's all you have to offer?

Naaaa, they (the NEA) do it for me


ok...Sure, Catholic priests have harmed kids. Sure, some educators have harmed kids.....but you have to be kidding me if you want to erase all the rest of the population of such dedicated individuals in order to make a point?!

Again, what's with this us vs them???  Who's trying to rid the world of Public school teachers, that you seem to be so stick on??


Job security??   Oh give me a break. Sirs, did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe all systems, be they  PS school systems, or law firms, or Fruit Basket markets down 12th stree..... are filled with few bad apples?

Absolutely.  And in nearly every other job, the incompotent bad apples are weeded out & fired, where as in the Public Education sector, they're simply relocated, if anything.



Sure, there are really stupid principals. There are many crazy administrators...but there are also very dedicated ones, as well.

Yea........and?  Let me make this is clear as possible (& please excuse the capital letter tone) NO ONE WANTS TO RID THE COUNTRY OF THE PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM & NO ONE WANTS TO GET RID OF THE VERY GOOD DEDICATED TEACHERS THAT MAKE UP THE SYSTEM.  What I advocate is to allow other avenues of education, THAT WORK AS GOOD, IF NOT BETTER than the Public School system, continue withOUT unnecessary overregulation, AND to allow for the easier firing of the incompotent & predatory teachers & principals.  You'll note that does NOT equate to my support that the Public School system be destroyed, or to abolish all the great teachers.  Do you grasp the difference??

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #141 on: March 18, 2008, 01:30:00 AM »
Your post was negative, Sirs.
That's what I was responding to......you see things differently than I.

I just don't agree.

Cynthia

sirs

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #142 on: March 18, 2008, 02:21:00 AM »
Don't agree with what?  The emphasis the NEA and unions place on job security for even the incompotent teachers, Principals, & Administrators??  The overt effort of the union to stifle any competition that happens to exist in nearly every other enterprise, perpetuating their effort to monopolize the education system??  That MOST teachers are excellent dedicated individuals, who deserve our support in every way possible??  What is it you don't agree with?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #143 on: March 18, 2008, 02:41:34 AM »
Cynthia,

If you were omnipotent, what changes would you make to the education system that provided for competency at grade level for all students as well as school system wide accountability?


First of all, let me say that ....
The NCLB act has a great many good points. I do believe that..to answer your query.
But, is isn't fully operational as I see it--- nor is it open to allow for healthy growth in a fashion that supports children. ...ALL CHILDREN. ALL CHILDREN.


SURe...I would expect every child to have to read on grade level across the board --- BUT if that child is diagnosed, and is simply capable of such a "benchmark"....Those expectations are at the weakest link in the NCLB, imo.

The weakest link in all of this, imo...is about an unrealistic accountability to bring every child to the same platform.  I am talking about the children who need so much more help/expertise from specialized and qualified teachers. Now as it stands, those kids are expected to function, read, write, compute, and progress at the same rate as their peers who are not diagnosed with such a learning disability-- L.D.

I believe that all children must be given a chance to learn.
Each human's brain learns is a unique way. My god.  The business of education is not just about numbers, or funding, or teacher's jobs on teh line......it is about individuals.


I would support the teachers instead of punishing them and the schools for what are unrealistic goals.

Ok sure... THE AYP (adequate yearly progress) is also a good idea, but the way it is handled is unjust. Schools can not possilby expect to rise to such a level as the regulations are currently organized.
There is little room for such perfection or progress when a school must show growth in the next school year based on mandatory growth

Ex; A school receives a grade of 97% overall on a nationally standardized test this year ( which is exemplary). That school MUST reach  a 98% or better the following year or their AYP is NOT MET.

So then, that same school receives a 96%(still exemplary)score the following year. The school is put on probation because it did not make APY!!! Punitive without representation.
 Not fair..not right..not productive.

I would make sure that good teachers are appreciated. As it stands, because of the ugliness and mess that is the "tabloidish NCLB scene"....teachers are quickly blamed and/or tarnished.

 Sure, I would reward schools based on test scores. and, and... It's ok to kick out the bad teachers. But, I think that one has to get down into the system to interview, observe, and ask pertinent and intelligent questions of teachers/schools---- instead of some sort of "team visit" (bureaucratic attempt to change teh system because the suddenly the government has decided one size fits all.)

I would assess each school individually as it has progessed. Fair assessments..... as sort of differentiation of academic improvements per school....

Ex:
If a particular school happens to be centered in an economically wealthier area of town, and therefore capable of providing more for the students vs another school that is barely staying a float, scrapping the barrel, surrounded by poverty and violence and "war zones"...---- I would give support accordingly. I would not expect one to be the same as the other and do so....TOMORROW!!!

I feel that the NCLB act is doing just that. Trying to force schools to improve based on irrational comparisons. ONe size fits all mentality with little funding and inaccurate accountability on its part.

Tweak the NCLB and it will work magic. I believe that to be true.



  


Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #144 on: March 18, 2008, 02:44:13 AM »

"The emphasis the NEA and unions place on job security for even the incompotent teachers, Principals, & Administrators??  The overt effort of the union to stifle any competition that happens to exist in nearly every other enterprise, perpetuating their effort to monopolize the education system??  "


YEs, I disagree with your statement, here, Sirs.

With all due respect. I have written my reasons in a previous post.

Good night. It's late. I am tired...

Good discussion, though. Perhaps things will iron out in this nation...we shall see.

The NCLB is broken but not trashed...so dont' get me wrong on that.

NEA is not as bad as you portrait.

BT

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #145 on: March 18, 2008, 03:17:38 AM »
Student A passes the competency test for grade three.

Student B does not.

Should student b be promoted to grade 4?

If not, why not?

If so, why so?


sirs

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #146 on: March 18, 2008, 03:46:23 AM »
"The emphasis the NEA and unions place on job security for even the incompotent teachers, Principals, & Administrators??  The overt effort of the union to stifle any competition that happens to exist in nearly every other enterprise, perpetuating their effort to monopolize the education system??  "

YEs, I disagree with your statement, here, Sirs.

Miss Cynthia, you yourself have referenced over and over the NEA's support at protecting teachers, and not once have you made reference to the incompotent & predatory teachers & principals that they also support and protect.  It'a almost as if "well, in order to protect the good ones, we have to protect all of them"    :-\

And Competition is the facilitator of ever improving standards and strategems.  It helps promite improvement in every facit it exists.  Yet, it's the NEA and company that will fight tooth and nail to prevent school choice for parents who would jump thru firey hoops at the opportunity of getting their kinds into better schools, not to mention the efforts they've put forth in inhibiting home schooling.  Every step of the way, where Children's education could be made better, there's the NEA making every effort to hold on to what monopolizing power they still have........always with the hallmark that it's "for the children"

You can disagree all you want, but your wrong about the efforts and priorities of the NEA and its leadership



"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #147 on: March 18, 2008, 06:47:30 AM »
Yeah, you realize that teachers are grossly underpaid, subject to a ponderous bureaucracy, and restricted from using their own minds, and yet you want to take away the only power they actually have, the NEA.

You think that the NEA should rat out people you think are bad teachers, when all it wants is the right to a comprehensible due process system that will encourage mediocre teachers to become better teachers.

Without the NEA and similar organizations, teachers would have no job security at all and even more pitiful salaries and would lose all claim to being professionals.

So screw you. And the horse you rode in on. You have no concept of the problems teachers face.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

kimba1

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #148 on: March 18, 2008, 02:00:50 PM »
uhm
underpaid doesn`t cover it
pay is not the only factor
due to all the lawsuits schools tend to get from parents
teachers are soo responsible to the student that the title teacher simply doesn`t cover it anymore.
this is one of the factors teachers are leaving.
if I sound like I`m blaming parents for the teacher shortage
your correct
remember all those chaotic policies are made as response from some parent
government do not make up rules
government only reacts


Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #149 on: March 18, 2008, 03:54:55 PM »
Yeah, you realize that teachers are grossly underpaid, subject to a ponderous bureaucracy, and restricted from using their own minds, and yet you want to take away the only power they actually have, the NEA.

You think that the NEA should rat out people you think are bad teachers, when all it wants is the right to a comprehensible due process system that will encourage mediocre teachers to become better teachers.

Without the NEA and similar organizations, teachers would have no job security at all and even more pitiful salaries and would lose all claim to being professionals.

So screw you. And the horse you rode in on. You have no concept of the problems teachers face.


BINGO, XO!!